Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance, a podcast where we find out more about the people behind a successful career. We speak with the leaders of today and tomorrow to discuss their motivations, their organizations, and their personal lives. Why? Because the financial sector could use a little more honest conversation. We’d like to thank our partners for their ongoing support: Kayak, EY, Mogelijk Vastgoedfinancieringen, Roland Berger and Lepaya. Your host is Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: Welcome, listeners, to a brand-new episode of the Leaders in Finance podcast. Today, not a regular episode in which I interview a CEO, a bank president, a minister, a non-executive board member, or a fintech entrepreneur, but an extra episode in the run-up to the annual FLAIRS conference, this year to be held on the 3rd of October. For those who don’t know FLAIRS, it is the Association for Young Financial Professionals, and every year they gather in a conference setting. And I must say, they always have a great speaker line-up—amazing again this year.
The theme of the conference this year is The Power to Pivot: Banking for Resilience and Renewal, which is no surprise and exactly what we will talk about today with a great panel of bank representatives. But first, I will speak to one of the organizers, Pieter-Jan Bakker, actually the Chair of FLAIRS this year. He is also a Business Consultant at ING, and I would love to learn more about the event. After that, I will introduce my panel of speakers here in front of me.
So first of all, Pieter-Jan, welcome to Leaders in Finance. Could you briefly introduce yourself? That would be great.
Pieter-Jan: Thank you so much, Jeroen. Yeah, my name is Pieter-Jan Bakker, I’m 32 years old, I have a study background in business administration. And as you already mentioned, I’m working as a business consultant for ING, and this year I’m organizing the event of FLAIRS. So really happy to be here. That’s great.
Jeroen: Do you have time next to your job to actually organize a whole conference? Because I know very well how much it takes to run a conference.
Pieter-Jan: Indeed, it takes some time, but it also gives a lot of excitement. And we’re quite a nice group of young professionals, and really happy and excited to organize a great event on the 3rd of October.
Jeroen: That’s great. So tell me more, tell us all more about the event. What you know, speakers, maybe a bit about the theme, and also about FLAIRS, obviously, who is part of FLAIRS?
Pieter-Jan: Yeah, let’s start with FLAIRS. Indeed, Flares is the biggest young professional event for young bankers. FLAIRS was founded in 2006 by the Young Associations of the five biggest banks in the Netherlands. This year’s edition will be in three weeks on October 3rd. During a full day program of keynote speakers, panel discussions, workshops, and networking, young bankers dive into resilience and renewal in the banking sector with topics such as AI regulation and innovation in payments, for example. And I really want to highlight one of our keynote speakers this year. It’s ABN AMRO’s new CEO, Marguerite Bérard. Really happy that she will speak at our event. Also want to emphasize, tickets are going very fast. We’re almost sold out. Sales started on the 2nd of September. So that’s very fast. So we see, yeah, a lot of excitement there. So if you haven’t bought a ticket yet, buy your ticket now. And we’re really excited for this year’s edition.
Jeroen: That’s great. I’m very much looking forward to hearing from everyone, because I’m not allowed to come, but I’m very much looking forward to hear what will be discussed over there. Maybe one last question. The power to pivot, banking for resilience and renewal. Maybe one sentence on that theme. What does it actually mean? And we’ll ask the panelists as well. Very short.
Pieter-Jan: The current situation in the world is quite challenging and unstable in a certain way. And what we want to emphasize during the event is to see how can banks react to that, how can they renew themselves, and how resilient are banks in an uncertain world?
Jeroen: Great. This is a great introduction, Peter-Jan Bakker, business consultant at ING. Thanks a lot for taking the time. And I hope you and I will both learn more about this topic from the panelists. And that’s a great segue into that panel, because in front of me here at this table, I have four really, really interesting people. And I will shortly introduce them. And I hope they will also introduce themselves a bit further after that. So first of all, Damla Hendriks, who is the chief risk officer and member of the managing board at Van Lanschot Kempen. Welcome. Yorick Naeff, CEO and co-founder at BUX and nowadays part of ABN AMRO. Welcome as well. Dieuwertje de Rover, lead wholesale banking strategy at Rabobank. Welcome. And Isil Evlioglu, head of private individuals at ING Netherlands. Welcome as well. So first of all, Damla, could you start with a short introduction of yourself?
Damla: Thanks, Jeroen. Great to be here this morning. So short introduction: Damla Hendricks, I’m 39 for another two weeks, so I may still join the event. That will be great, because then I’m going to the other side, the 40s. Two kids, 11 and 12, living in Rotterdam and currently responsible for risk and compliance within Van Lanschot Kempen and also a member of the management board.
Jeroen: Always worked in financial services?
Damla: Always worked in financial services. Yeah, always.
Jeroen: Can you name a couple of organizations or, you know, sectors that you worked in?
Damla: Yeah, sure. So I started my career in 2007. My first job was at Robeco, an asset manager in the Netherlands. And I started as a financial risk manager. And in 2008, I think we all remember what happened. With the financial crisis, your career path is basically set if you start that way as a financial risk manager. Afterwards, I went into insurance and my position before this one was the CFO role at Achmea in Istanbul. I also know Isil from that previous role. It was a great time in Istanbul, to be back in my country for three and a half years in the non-life sector, being partner with Garanti BBVA. And yeah, since last year, back in the country.
Jeroen: Wonderful. Thanks for your introduction. Over to you, Yorick. And I’m actually extra happy that you’re here, because once you were a guest at Leaders in Finance in a one-on-one interview. So people that haven’t listened to it and want to know everything about Yorick personally can listen to that one. I will link to the episode in the show notes. But maybe, Yorick, for people that don’t know you, maybe some more introduction.
Yorick: Yeah, thanks for the kind introduction, Jeroen, I appreciate it. Sure, of course, if you want to know more about me, you can definitely listen to the podcast. But just to, if you’re a little bit lazy to do so, I’m 42 years old, so apparently I’m on the wrong side, like you just mentioned. So I’m not allowed to go to the event anymore. I started my career in banking. So I’ve been in financial services my whole life as well. Started as a management trainee with ING, moved to the strategy side of things, really in 2013 when Ralph Hamers became CEO, defining the new strategy there. But once that was basically done, I wanted to do something different and started with another group of people, BUX. That was more than 11 years ago. And eventually we sold the company in a few pieces: one part to Coinbase, one part to a UAE-based investment firm, and one part to ABN AMRO. I was CEO of the holding company, but also for the investment firm that we sold to ABN. So I became part of the ABN AMRO family. And I’m now the designated head of innovation as well.
Jeroen: Very different being an entrepreneur in a startup scene 11 years ago, making the whole journey to a bigger organization and now actually being on the payroll again.
Yorick: Yeah, it’s quite different. And of course, I have to get used to the red tape and all the politics again. But in the end, I think it’s a great moment to do this right now. There’s a new leader, right? So you just introduced her as well, Margriethe. There’s also a new chief risk officer at the bank. So there’s a different wind starting to blow now. I think also if you look at what’s happening out there, we as a bank also need to be able to pivot. And how great would it be to be at the forefront of that change?
Jeroen: I remember a lot of things from our conversation. One thing I remember is that, you know, I’m paraphrasing here, but you said something along the lines that you shouldn’t be afraid as a young person who wants to have a career to just work all night once in a while.
Yorick: Yeah, doing an all-nighter. And I think it’s good for everybody.
Jeroen: That’s your term.
Yorick: Look, I think if you do something that you have passion for, something that you like, you know, you get energy from it. And I think therefore to work all night or go the extra mile, there’s nothing wrong with that. I think, look, if you work all night, how I look at it is that the hours you put in are all learnings. All learnings are experience that you build up. And it’s also interesting. Sometimes you have people that are super young but super experienced because they put so much time and effort into their jobs. In comparison to maybe the other side of the spectrum, people that are a lot older but have worked only a few hours a day, really, if you look at the output there. So I think it’s good for everybody’s career. And especially if we’re talking about pivoting and change and building up your career. Because mostly our conversation was about leadership and future career paths. Then I think it’s definitely a tip I want to give people.
Jeroen: Wonderful. I see. It’s great to see you haven’t changed your mind on this one. So not yet. Not yet. Dieuwertje, over to you. Great to have you here as well. And maybe you can do the same thing and introduce yourself.
Dieuwertje: Thank you, Jeroen. Pleasure to be here. Since we’re talking about age, I’m 34 years old. Living together with my husband and one-year-old daughter in Utrecht. I started my career in the financial sector actually after having a dad who was an entrepreneur and didn’t really speak well about banks. I never had the ambition to go into the financial sector, but I’m still here and I love it. I started at ING within wholesale banking and then shortly after moved to corporate strategy and then joined Rabobank in the digital strategy department, working really on the future of banking within Rabobank. After that, I had the opportunity to build and scale the Rabo Embedded Services proposition, a tremendous effort, a real adventure. And if you’re talking about pivoting, I gained some real experience there. And recently, actually two months ago, I joined the wholesale and rural segment strategy team within Rabobank, focusing on the future relevance and commercial growth of that division of Rabobank.
Jeroen: Wonderful introduction. Maybe one follow-up because you triggered me. Your dad, was he happy ultimately that you started working for a bank? Was he proud, or was he like, Dieuwertje, what’s going on here?
Dieuwertje: I think in the beginning it really was like, what’s going on here? But he was already happy, because before that I wanted to go into politics, and I think he found that even worse. But I still try to explain to him that I’m an intrapreneur, which is kind of similar to what he has been doing.
Jeroen: Last but not least, Isil, wonderful to have you. Maybe you can again do the same thing, introduce yourself a bit further.
Isil: Yeah, very good. I think I’m the eldest in this room now because I’m going to turn 44 in a few weeks.
Jeroen: Sorry for starting this theme. Peter-Jan, I apologize in advance.
Isil: Yeah, but I’ve been with ING for almost two years now. I’m married with two kids and we all live in Amsterdam. Previously, I started my career in McKinsey’s Istanbul office, where, when I started, I actually said I wanted to do everything except banking. So I thought it was a luxury of starting my career as a consultant, having the option to choose. But then I realized I actually wanted to do banking because I saw the impact it creates on society. I saw the depth of different things you can do in banking. So I was there for more than 10 years doing consulting, mainly in financial services across Europe. Then I joined Garanti BBVA, as Damla was mentioning. I started first in the payments area, which is very innovative and also quite a complex business in the Turkish market. Then I ran the retail house of the bank for a few years before joining ING. And now at ING, I’m in charge of private individuals in the Netherlands, a role I’ve had for almost two years.
Jeroen: Great. What was the biggest difference, in your opinion, between being a strategy consultant and working at a bank?
Isil: So basically, in one of them, you set the strategy. But as I always say, you don’t get your hands dirty until you start executing. And I started with payments. Payments is a super execution environment. We were running more than 300 campaigns in a month at a time. So, you know, it was a very different change. You really get into the kitchen, but you also need to stay very strategic on top of it. So having that balance was a great experience to learn after strategic consulting.
Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance with Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: Great to have you all here. And let’s go to the theme: the power to pivot — banking for resilience and renewal. Who would like to talk about this theme? What does it actually mean for you? And I’m not pointing at anyone, so the first one to speak can start. I’d love to hear and learn more, because I’m not sure I fully understand it.
Yorick: Yeah, happy to start. Look, I think pivoting is a bit of a buzzword, but nowadays it’s more important than ever. And I’m not just talking about resilience, I’m also talking about making commercial efforts and being commercially successful. In the end, we’re all commercial firms and we want to make sure that we grow and capture market share in a hyper-competitive European space.
Especially when it comes to pivoting: if you look at the newer generations and what they demand, but also at their attention span, you have to make sure you keep changing. If you don’t, then basically you’re moving backwards. So I think it’s a very broad topic. And for banking, there’s an additional challenge, because many of the banks in the Netherlands are dealing with a very difficult IT infrastructure. I always call it a spaghetti infrastructure — a lot of legacy, centuries of mergers and acquisitions all combined.
You have to deal with all these changes with that in the background. On top of that, many people have been working there for decades and therefore build up some kind of tunnel vision. So it is definitely a challenge. That’s why I’m happy we’re discussing this now, because I have some ideas on how we can all do better. I’m not just looking at this from a competitive angle in the Netherlands; I also see more and more players from abroad offering financial services here. Together, everyone around this table needs to think about how we can protect our turf and pivot to stay successful in this market — not just now, but also in the foreseeable future.
Jeroen: I’d love to hear your solutions and ideas later in this podcast. But you mention big companies, red tape, and spaghetti IT infrastructure. Isn’t that also part of the reason pivoting is hard? If you’re a startup and you’re losing money, you have to pivot — otherwise you’re out of business. But so far, all of you here are making pretty good money. Does that make it harder to pivot?
Yorick: For now, you’re completely right. But I’m not looking at this from the perspective of the next three to four years. I think we have to look at the next few decades. There’s a huge wealth shift going on. There’s an aging population. New generations look at banking completely differently. And there are firms out there that aren’t typical financial services companies but are building relationships and offering financial solutions.
So yes, we have to think carefully about what that means for the future. And you’re right, startups have to make ends meet. But I can tell you, there are startups that have already raised hundreds of millions in funding and can really put that to work. I don’t even need to mention the names — you know them.
Jeroen: Damla, what do you think about the theme? What are your first thoughts, without going into ideas just yet?
Damla: Thanks, Jeroen. Many, many thoughts. It’s a broad topic. I guess I’m the only risk and compliance person here. From that perspective, yes, there’s a shift of wealth, but banks also need to offer stability in a very complex geopolitical environment. I think we haven’t seen this kind of instability since the Second World War. The war in Ukraine, the situation in Israel, and many others all highlight the need to focus on your risk and control framework in such volatile times.
We still don’t know what Trump will do with tariffs, but we do know what the impact could be. Are we prepared as banks? We have a duty of care to our clients, but we also have a societal role to keep our banks up and running in volatile times. So the question is: how prepared are we as a sector for that? And what do we need to do differently than we have done before?
Jeroen: So, is the CRO of one of the largest private banks in the country more, I guess, focused on the resilience part than on the renewal part, or is that a wrong assumption?
Damla: I guess that’s a wrong assumption. When I take a step back and think from the commercial aspect, what we see in our day-to-day job is what we call the great wealth shift from the older generations to the younger generation. If you look at our client base, we have wealthy families, and the wealth is being transferred from the older generation to the younger generation. Their needs are different. They ask us to be more innovative. They ask us to be more app-based. They want to reach their banker 24/7, and you have to prepare for that. Otherwise, you’re going to lose this game.
Jeroen: That’s quite a task. We’ll talk about it later as well. But at the same time, preparing for this massive wealth transfer — I think The Economist calls it the 100 trillion battle or something — while also making sure you keep everything afloat during difficult times. Isil, what’s your take on this?
Isil: So basically, if you hear all of us, you see that there is a lot happening at both macro and micro level — in the political environment, the economic environment. But also in terms of what we expect from life as individuals, which is changing significantly with technology, digitalization, and so on. On the renewal side, I think we should be continuously adapting and sometimes even leading in how we set the banking environment for our customers. For that, I consider three types of renewal.
One is strategic renewal. This is about really rethinking our role as a bank. What does it mean for our customers, what we provide to them? We are not only providing liabilities anymore, you know, we are now providing more on the experience side, and that is completely different.
Operational renewal is more about how we rewire the bank internally. How do we really make it happen for our customers?
And finally, and maybe most importantly, societal renewal. What is our purpose? What do we stand for in society? That is, I think, continuously changing.
And coming to your question — we are making money, but do we need to be more resilient to change or reluctant to change? No, we should be front-running, because we as the banking sector have tremendous impact on society. That is also a responsibility we should be delivering on. This should come, of course, with resilience. I think banking is a trust industry anyway, and resilience is one of the key factors of trust.
Jeroen: Starting with three points still feels like a real consultant there. Those are very good and very interesting points. Dieuwertje, very different at Rabobank, or do you agree with what you’ve just heard?
Dieuwertje: Yes, I hear a lot of familiar things. Taking one step back for me, pivoting is the ability and willingness to change or to adapt to changing circumstances.
Jeroen: Wow, a definition, great.
Dieuwertje: I studied something similar, so that might have helped. And I think Isil already spoke about what to pivot and I think reasons to pivot, to overcome, as Yorick has mentioned, the difficulty to change. I think I see, generally speaking, two reasons. One of them is the obvious one: the changes around us that are seen by everyone and really enable us to change. Let’s say COVID-19 — seen by everyone, very clear and obvious that we had to change something. And in a couple of weeks, we were able to effectively work from home. Great. But I think most other requests to change are made by less visible circumstances. Let’s say the implementation of regulation PSD1 or PSD2, maybe even the rise of the Internet or changing customer needs based on Apple moving into the market. Those are the changes that are less obvious, less seen. And I think what is important as a bank or as a company is that you need the people in your organization who see those changes, are able to translate them into what they mean for our company, and should be heard by senior management. If you have this in place and you have an external factor, then I think it is possible to change, even as a large institution. Of course, there are some forces that can help or not, like cultural forces or social beliefs or how we value behavior in your organization. However, still a lot of work. But if you have the right people in place, you can change.
Jeroen: I think I would argue everything starts with the people, right? Still, even though we all know tech is really important. It’s already playing a really big part. It’s going to become even bigger. And I want to ask all of you, but start with you, Dieuwertje, how do you get people to join the bandwagon of change? Because ultimately, if there’s a clear crisis, it’s always easier, right? You know, sad, but it works. Here, there’s not an extreme crisis — or maybe you could call it a creeping crisis, right? Something is going on, but you don’t necessarily feel it immediately, maybe even like climate change. So how do you get people to join change, to flag change, and ultimately implement it?
Dieuwertje: I think you need many different things, but starting with adjusting to your audience. So, who do you have in front of you that you want to join your bandwagon? Speaking about red tape and politics, you need a lot of different people in your organization to join you and adjust your story to them. So even go fact-based. If people like fact-based, go for the inspiring narrative. If people are triggered by that, you say what all the banks are doing — sometimes that helps. So really adjust your story to the people in front of you. Next to that, I think you have a couple of hard factors: the right KPIs, the room to maneuver, freedom from commercial obligations, and senior-level support. You need to be seen and heard by senior management to be understood and supported. And next to that, I think a lot of hard work. All-nighters maybe, but you definitely need to put a lot of effort in it and believe in yourself to ensure that people join you in your effort to change.
Jeroen: Great to hear, Yorick, that all-nighters are accepted, at least with someone else. And also the red tape is accepted. It’s not only at ABN AMRO, but also at Rabobank, as we just learned.
Yorick: It’s everywhere. I’m aware of that. But I think just to respond to this, culture eats strategy for breakfast. We all know that. So yes, of course, it starts with the people. But I think there are two ways in which you can create change and a change mindset within a firm. One is gradually making the necessary adjustments, having senior management buy-in, doing trainings, and maybe pulling people out of their comfort zone here and there. That’s gradual change. The other way to make sure that an organization is willing to change is to disrupt the organization. No surprise here, I’m a bigger fan of the latter. In the end, there needs to be some kind of disruption happening. And every time you see, as we just heard in a few examples, that if there is a real need or requirement, suddenly people can change—if it’s really necessary. The problem many organizations face is that the feeling of real necessity just isn’t there. And therefore, you can only do it from the top, to create a disruptive moment, if you will, to really make sure the organization is ready to move in a different direction.
Jeroen: How do you create a quote-unquote artificial crisis?
Yorick: You have to create a burning platform, right?
Jeroen: And maybe make harsh decisions. What does that mean, a burning platform?
Yorick: Well, for example, you need to make sure that people understand there is now a situation where this can’t go on any longer. Really make them see that. And that is the starting point. Then you have to create a disruptive moment. There are multiple possibilities for that. You can create a full reorganization, for example. You can move in a completely different direction when it comes to the reputation, the branding, and the positioning of the firm. But you have to do that from the top, because from the bottom up, it will not happen.
Jeroen: That means that the board members—and we have one board member here from one of the other firms—need to be really bold to do that. Because as long as they’re earning billions in many of your cases, it’s a bold step to explain to your non-execs that you’re going to create disruption.
Yorick: Yeah, but maybe you still can do it because you’re still making those billions, right? The moment that starts to decline slowly, slowly… And look, these types of things don’t happen overnight. It’s a very long process where a little bit of change is happening and it’s creeping in. And at some point you’re 20, 30 years further and you’ve become a very small regional bank. And then you’re thinking: wow, what happened in the last few decades? Why didn’t we see this sooner? Look, this is more my feeling with regards to the future. In the end, I see what is happening. I’m very much embedded in the FinTech ecosystem. I lived in London for six years. I see what’s happening in the UK and how the neobanks are doing there. I don’t even have to mention the names. Like I said before, there are a few players that are not just big in the UK anymore — they’re big worldwide, and they’re attracting tens of thousands of new clients every day. And these guys can pivot. They understand what it is to make the necessary changes in order to adapt to the needs and requirements of the newer generations. And we’re talking about billions and billions of assets and money flowing into those firms, and them already being super profitable as we speak. So this is where we are today. Now, fast forward 20 or 30 years from now: how are we going to keep competing with them? And I think the only way to really open everyone’s eyes is to create a disruptive moment.
Jeroen: Great. I mean, maybe one of the companies you were referring to, Revolut, now valued at 75 billion, right? So these are extreme numbers. One follow-up question. Let’s take a very practical example: Adyen. Could that have come out of ING, Rabobank, Van Lanschot, ABN AMRO, you think? Or is it something you can only build from the outside?
Yorick: I mean, there are a few successful incumbents in Europe, right? So of course it’s possible. But it’s extremely hard. And you really have to do something completely out of your comfort zone. If you look at the successful incumbents that are out there, they’re built outside the bank, funded by the bank, but built by entrepreneurs. So if you do that, and you’re rigorous in that approach, and you really keep the corporate bank away, yes, of course you can do it. But again, then I go back to what we were just discussing: it’s about the people. You need the right people to make sure that happens. The reality, unfortunately, is that in this environment — especially in the Netherlands, though I don’t want to generalize too much — it’s far more attractive for an entrepreneur to start their own firm than to work for a corporate and build an incumbent there. Because of the upside and the restrictions that are there from a tax perspective, a bonus perspective, and a wages perspective. So it’s not that it was ever easy in the first place, but it’s gotten very tough going forward.
Voice-over: This is the Leaders in Finance podcast with Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: I already said we have a board member here. So we can take a lot of things that were said before by Dieuwertje and by Yorick, but let’s take one thing: the top-down buy-in. Let’s say the board needs to buy into it, push it, push change. Is that right? That’s how you feel it as well at Van Lanschot?
Damla: I couldn’t agree more. You have to set the scene. You have to set the vision from the board perspective and you have to peel it, convince people layer by layer. That’s really the only way to do it. And there are a few success elements.
I think really having the open dialogue with the agreeers and the followers, and especially also with the non-followers, is very important. What’s the concern? Are you afraid that your job will change and you won’t have an income? What’s the worry? That open dialogue is super important. And the other thing is, and that’s something I see in my organization with AI: AI will change all our jobs. It’s a hype now and we have to follow, otherwise we’re going to be the small regional bank you just mentioned. It’s so important to take people along, not only the 26-year-old IT developer using AI in his daily coding job, but also the 50-plus head of legal. You need him as an AI champion. Our head of legal is an AI champion. I really adore his work and he is such a believer. He says, well, I’m not going to work with the 400-plus euro partners of the law firms anymore, because I have AI to do my job. Brilliant. And just continue showing the good example to the rest of the organization because that makes it really go.
Jeroen: Great, if I were the head of legal, I’d get a great compliment in the media, and I would ask for a promotion. But just to follow up, Damla, how do you create this moment where Yorick describes that people feel like we need to change? I could add something so you can think a little bit.
Damla: Yeah.
Jeroen: One more sentence: you’re also very proud of the fact that you’re a very old bank, seventh generation or something if I’m not mistaken. So you’re also very proud of something you want to keep and preserve.
Damla: That’s really true. We don’t have the ambition nor the illusion that we’re going to be a digital bank, because that’s not our proposition. Our proposition is actually the contrary: personal attention, really taking the time, the bankers meeting the clients in person, face-to-face at their kitchen table, talking about their money, their future, their wealth transition to the next generations. And that’s the added value, that’s why our clients choose us. So that’s something we will preserve.
That doesn’t mean we’re not going to use AI for our bankers to create even more time for their clients. Think about the support tools they can get from AI. What we do nowadays is facilitate our bankers with a perfect database of our clients. So when they’re having the actual talk—what do you want to do with your money? What do you want to do with your wealth?—they’re getting instant support on investments and how they can allocate wealth from an AI tool. So they can really get real-time input. And that’s really valuable because it gives them more time for the real talk with the client, rather than doing the nitty-gritty details.
Jeroen: Isil, I’ve spoken in the past with Pinar Abay and with Anneka Treon, and I dare say you guys are completely on the path of change. But let’s talk about the customers because they are close to you. Are your customers, are your clients, demanding change or are they actually worried about you changing?
Isil: I think they are demanding change. And you see it in society. That’s what I meant also at the renewal part. Society is changing, expectations are changing. And we don’t want to only respond to that change, but we also want to predict what is changing and be a frontrunner in responding to the expected changes. So I think in that sense, the digital environment gives us a huge space to act because now we can reach millions of our customers very easily once something is changing. But it’s also a great place to provide superior experience: very easy, convenient, a good experience for our customers. And of course, their expectations keep changing.
Jeroen: Can you elaborate a little bit on what kind of change they are demanding? Because the feeling is always that the younger generations want everything tech, but then I speak to private bankers and they always tell me, no, it’s not only that, it’s also still the personal connection.
Isil: There is, I think, a lot. There are many, let’s say, personas, as we call them, expecting different things. So we have some of our customers, like young adults, who are more into traveling, they look for more connectivity. So you should provide more solutions around that. But then we have elderly customers who are retirees. They are more about better offers, ensuring security for their money, and so on. So depending on your persona, not necessarily only demographics, but also your needs or your expectations from life, the needs are changing.
Jeroen: I already mentioned, I think Damla, you were the first, but maybe I’m wrong, AI. Tech will be a big part of the change, but also a big part around resilience, right? And also geopolitics with the whole situation in the world, the difficult situation. Let’s make it very practical because a lot of people talk about AI, but in your organizations, maybe even applied to yourself, to what extent are you using AI more as, you know, the way I use it as a support thing—it saves me a lot of hours—or is it already much more to you? Are you using it in a much more sophisticated way? Anyone who wants to comment? Dieuwertje?
Dieuwertje: Well, we recently started our new wholesale segment strategy team. And actually we said, we have one junior colleague, that’s Aiden, but that’s basically co-pilot. And we really try to collaborate with Aiden to improve our work and delegate some tasks, and thereby also try to be a frontrunner within the wholesale bank, which is maybe a little bit more traditional in some sense, and show that it’s not only about advising on changing teams around you, but also working with it.
Jeroen: So what does Aiden do, practically speaking?
Dieuwertje: Aiden tries to do a lot of data analysis. We’re doing a lot of research. So focusing on client segment needs, starting with Aiden to define, okay, what do asset managers want from us? What do pension funds want from us? And then starting with basically brainstorming to formulate hypotheses. Of course, we’re not fully trusting Aiden yet, but we’re trying to cooperate with him or her.
Jeroen: And is it more to learn as an organization, or is it actually adding value already?
Dieuwertje: Well, if I compare my current job, or the job of my colleagues who have been in the bank for two or three years, with my work at the start of my career, it’s definitely helping them. A lot of research efforts are reduced in a short amount of time. So I think it’s helping because it frees up space to think about certain things, rather than spending all the time on analysis, Googling and so on.
Jeroen: And is your internal AI as good as the personal ones? I have a paid version of ChatGPT, and I hear from people working in banks that their versions are worse than my personal one. Honest answer, please.
Dieuwertje: I do have my preferences, and that’s not necessarily the one currently offered, but within the bank we are exploring other versions and types to find the best one. So that’s a good thing.
Yorick: For us, it’s core to the strategy. I think we’ve reached a point of no return. AI is massive, and to be fair, it can help in so many domains. It started with summarizing conversations with clients or supporting customer service, but it’s already moving into detecting financial crime, transaction monitoring, and shaping investment propositions. We can use AI to improve that for our clients. And it touches two things. One is cost savings—making things more efficient, more simple, putting more in the hands of the system. But on top of that, it really helps improve the client experience. For us, it’s huge, and we’re spending a lot of time, money, and effort on improving AI capabilities within the bank, and already building quite a number of features—not just with generative AI anymore, but also with agentic AI.
Jeroen: One thing I often wonder—I don’t know if you can give me an answer, or at least a direction—is this: if AI starts to touch the AML space, where we all know about 20% of the workforce is employed, and on top of that it adds value in customer service centers where a lot of people also work, will we in the future have far fewer people working in financial services? I find it difficult. I don’t know if you have an answer.
Yorick: I can tell you my opinion.
Jeroen: Yes, please.
Yorick: I hope so. I think if you can do more with less, that’s great. People should, of course, make sure that they understand how AI works.
And look, I think in the end, we also need to understand that we’re a commercial company, right? People cost a lot of money. So my opinion is, if you can do things better with fewer people, at lower cost, that’s great — especially if it also improves the client experience. I’m very open about that.
Jeroen: From a CRO perspective, only dangers ahead and worried that people start to put all your intellectual property into personal tools and maybe other people disrupting you with AI tools, or do you see a lot of opportunities as well?
Damla: I see opportunities, but I also see risks from a job transformation perspective. I think we all need to be aware that AI can be very biased. It can discriminate.
It can be completely wrong. So we have to be very aware of those risks. And you mentioned, is your ChatGPT better or is our internal tool better? Well, I don’t know, but we have to use the internal tool because you don’t want to risk your data leaking outside. So better be careful here. There’s still so much unknown. On the other hand, from a commercial and cost-saving perspective, we have to use it. So it’s not an option to do nothing with it. Going back to your question, the functions will definitely change. The kind of work you give to AI will be one part, and around it you’ll need a lot of review functions to really check if what AI is creating is OK. Is it correct? Is it accurate? So you have to check that and hence functions will change. I don’t know if it will necessarily lead to a reduction in the number of FTEs.
Jeroen: All right. I think on a very practical note, it’s very hard to prevent people from throwing stuff from the firm into personal tools when they’re sitting at home, working at home, and so on.
Damla: You can control that to some extent. Well, to some extent, you can do a lot of things. Like what I find very frustrating, but also very necessary, is that I can’t copy things from my Teams chat to WhatsApp. It’s super irritating, but that’s a way of screening it. That’s a way of protecting it. Such tools also exist for the use of AI.
Yorick: One thing to add on this, and I fully agree with everything that has been said: today’s AI systems and AI solutions are the worst they’ll ever be. But this is also how you should approach it, right? This is not a thing that basically solves everything now. And of course, there needs to be human control. And yes, they still hallucinate here and there. But you have to think about: OK, where were we three years ago? And where are AI systems now? And what can we therefore expect in the next five, ten years? It’s going to be very impressive. And therefore, make sure that you use it to the best of your capabilities.
Jeroen: And it’s already really good, right, in many ways. Although it’s the worst we’ll ever see. I completely agree with you. But I remember being in high school and the first domain name I saw on the internet looked terrible compared to what we can already do with AI now. So the change will probably also be much faster. Yeah.
Isil: I fully agree with you again. We should really learn how to live with AI. For us, I think AI is not a purpose anymore. It is the way we work with it. So we should be learning as organizations, as individuals, what we can do more and more with AI. AI is not the target. AI is a tool for us to bring a better experience to our customers, to improve operational efficiency. We now start using it to create movies. You know, you can do tons of different things. But also in terms of our human capital, our people, we will still need a lot of people, but the need will change. So there will be upskilling or reskilling needs on the people side because you will maybe need more behavioral scientists, since AI gives you everything. But this emotional touch, the personal touch, is still not there with AI. So then, you know, you need, of course, more people who can really code or create their agile environment now with agentic AI. Maybe not only squads of people, but also squads of agentic AI. But someone needs to create them, someone needs to monitor them, manage them. So the skills that are going to be needed in the future are going to change, and they are going to change at tremendous speed. So we should all catch up with that.
Voice-over: Leaders in Finance with Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: It’s great that you mentioned the word “people” many times, because that’s exactly the last topic I want to talk about today. I could easily talk with you for hours, by the way — with all of you I could talk for hours on this topic. There’s so much more to say, but let’s talk about people as the final topic for today. So, Isil, ultimately you need a great workforce. That’s my word for what you’re saying. How do you make them come and work for you? And what kind of profiles are you generally looking for?
Isil: Yeah, this is very, very important, and I think it stays at the heart of our strategy at ING as well. And if you look at our purpose, we want to empower people to take a step ahead in their life and in business. So this is not only for our customers, but mainly for our people, because if you don’t feel like your workplace is empowering you, I think it’s really hard to work there — at least, even personally for me. So this is the environment we want to create: innovative, supportive, encouraging. And that’s also the kind of profiles we are looking for in our teams. So in terms of that, creating your stories around this and also what I said in the societal renewal part, which I emphasize a lot because it brings the purpose to what we do. For instance, financial health, the work we are doing there, and so on. All these things help you to attract people with that profile.
Jeroen: Are you competing with the people at this table mainly? Are you mainly competing with international banks or are you competing with non-financial services? What are your main competitors?
Isil: It’s all of them, actually.
Jeroen: But what’s the main one?
Isil: I think it’s an international financial environment. So it’s not only local, but international, because also at ING we are very international if you look at our profiles. So it’s the international financial environment, but depending on our roles, like if you are in a design role, then it is not only financial services. It’s a much broader scope. I think this competition of banks to banks or sector to sector was more the old way of doing things. With more technology, with more digitalization, it is beyond that now.
Jeroen: And for the audience that PieteriJan is catering to at the FLAIRS event, maybe one very personal tip for someone who just left, let’s say, university or whatever, and starts to work with you. What’s the number one tip for him or her?
Isil: Be entrepreneurial.
Jeroen: And that is?
Isil: That is take initiative, take risks and, you know, go for it.
Jeroen: Attracting people, Yorick — great people and creating a place that people want to work. And you need those people, I guess.
Yorick: Yeah, look, I think that we should let go of the idea that we are competing for talent within financial services. If I look back at the time of BUX, we hired the best people, especially from outside financial services — gaming, social media, messaging — great people. Many of these industries are light years ahead of the financial services industry. They also had more freedom, obviously, working in a non-regulated space and therefore were able to think outside the box more. And especially if you look at it from that perspective, I think you have to look at other things to make it interesting for people to come work within financial services and really make sure that they thrive. What I always try to do is indeed that entrepreneurial spirit, to really ignite that. Make sure that people get freedom, give them full end-to-end responsibility and accountability, become a co-founder, basically, of your respective domain and give them the freedom and empowerment to do what they need to do.
And that is, of course, one part of it that is all non-financial. There’s also, of course, a financial component, right? Other things to make sure that we can keep it interesting for people. But in the end, you have to create an overall picture that’s attractive enough. And yeah, there is a war on talent going on and it’s not going to stop, right? The labour market as it is, is super tight. It will probably remain tight for the foreseeable future. Luckily, there are still a few benefits in the Dutch system that can attract foreign talent as well. But the war on talent is there, and it’s here to stay.
Jeroen: I also want to ask you the tip question, like I asked Isil, but maybe reformulate it a little and give a tip to the younger Yorick that came out of university. I recall that you were a cum laude student, but what’s the tip you would give your younger self?
Yorick: Look, I think that nowadays, and I’m not just talking about myself going back to when I graduated from university, because I think I made a good choice starting my career with ING. I think ING was a great bank and really nurtured the talents of its people. But if I look now at the newer generations and could give them a tip, then I think many people believe they should just start an entrepreneurial journey directly from university, or not even finish university and start when they’re 18. I think you miss an important component of professionalism and understanding how business works if you skip one of these steps. So my tip is always: why don’t you start your career somewhere in a professional environment, learn for a couple of years, and then begin that real journey. That’s the only tip I want to give the newer generations.
Jeroen: Are you also recommending they leave university, to drop out? Is that what I heard?
Yorick: On the contrary. I’m saying people believe they should leave university so they can start becoming an entrepreneur and become a billionaire. I think they watch too much social media. I think you should want to finish university, complete it. Then you have that ticket in your bag, that professionalism in your bag, you understand how to finish things. After that, preferably start in a professional environment for a couple of years, learn politics, learn how to deal with different stakeholders. And if you then want to start an entrepreneurial journey, the timing will be much better than doing it directly from university.
Jeroen: And on that note, really last question to you directly. For the next few years, maybe you’ll stay with the bank, but at some point you’ll raise money again and start this disruptive company in financial services. How likely is that?
Yorick: I kind of have a few ideas. Yeah, I think it’s likely.
Jeroen: Great. Thank you.
Dieuwertje: To answer your question about what kind of talent we need in a bank or what we can offer them, I think most importantly in the financial sector, in a large Dutch bank, you can contribute to society, as already mentioned by others here at the table. You can have a huge impact. Once you’re in the bank, I think it’s most important to offer growth opportunities, to learn a lot, and also to make visible how you can contribute to society or provide opportunities to do that. Especially within Rabobank, we have the luxury of being a member bank, a cooperative bank, which provides even more opportunities. And next to that, give people responsibility, but also take on that responsibility.
Earlier we spoke about the need for senior management ownership and driving change or pivoting. We live in such a complex world that we need everyone in the organization to observe changes and dynamics, and also to speak about them internally. So my call to everyone within FLAIRS: don’t just follow, take the lead, see what needs to change, and voice this within your organization. Find a senior-level sponsor—yes, it’s much easier if you have one—but don’t wait. Take on this responsibility.
Jeroen: It’s great. We’re collecting a lot of tips for your audience, my audience. So, Damla?
Damla: The war for talent is still very competitive. So maybe from Van Lanschot’s perspective, and I may be a bit biased, but what we can offer is a small organization and a boutique club that is…
Jeroen: You’re now going to promote Van Lanschot Kempen?
Damla: Yeah, I’m trying.
Jeroen: Just be very clear about it.
Damla: I’m a little biased, but it’s still a beautiful organization to work at because it’s small, yet large enough to make a difference. You don’t get lost in a large bank, but you still get to know all the 2,000 people working for the bank. So that’s wonderful. And you see the change, the value chain end-to-end. That’s wonderful as well. What we’re looking for is, on one hand, as Isil nicely said, the entrepreneurial spirit, but on the other hand, really the curiosity and the learning agility. Learning agility is a really important thing because it’s much more important than the years of experience and the content you’ve collected up until now. Learning agility and your ability to ask for help, as you rightly said, will determine how far you get. Those are the aspects we’re looking for as a bank.
Jeroen: That’s great. Thank you. I didn’t mean it to be a promotion, but the second part was very clear. So thank you so much. It’s the war on talent at its finest, right?
Pieter-Jan: Exactly.
Jeroen: I think he’s trying to hire you, Yorick. So anyway, the last thing to all of you, before I thank you, because I really enjoyed this conversation so far, but is there something — and there’s definitely a lot — but if there’s one thing you thought should have been mentioned here, or we completely missed it with regards to this theme, please bring it up now. Because after that, I’ll bring it to a close.
Isil: Maybe also for our young colleagues who are listening now: please explore, please reach out to people. I mean, there isn’t just one path that is true. You have to create your own path, and you can only create the best one for yourself if you really explore — with people, with different things, by taking risks. That would be my only advice from my 20-plus years of experience working.
Jeroen: And if a lot of people working for you want to spend half an hour with you, you always say yes?
Isil: Yes, I try.
Jeroen: Be careful what you’re saying.
Isil: Yeah, I know, but as long as my, you know, I have 24 hours, as long as that allows, I try my best.
Yorick: Yeah, one thing from my side, just maybe elaborate on that. We’re now discussing, you know, pivoting as an organization, but I think for listeners as well, my tip would be: pivot as well. Keep pivoting, keep changing yourself, keep daring yourself. The magic happens outside the comfort zone. So make sure that you keep doing that and keep challenging yourself to do things differently and keep pivoting yourself. That’s my tip I want to close off with.
Jeroen: And if needed, an all-nighter. It helps. Full circle.
Yorick: Thanks for bringing that back like three times.
Jeroen: Sorry, Yorick, that’s what I remembered really well.
Damla: So maybe one thing, a tip, something nice that I recently read. What does it take to be successful? Well, three things: the optimism of a fool, the skin of a rhino and the endurance of a horse.
Jeroen: What’s the copyright here? Is this from you or?
Damla: No, it’s not from me, but I don’t remember where I read it. I thought this is so true. You have to be optimistic as a fool. You have to have a hard skin and you have to go for it. You have to have the endurance. So I really liked it.
Jeroen: And which of the three do you feel most comfortable with yourself?
Damla: I like the rhino one. You know, I’m second line. I’m risk and compliance. I don’t always have good things to say, so that skin helps.
Jeroen: Yeah, thank you.
Dieuwertje: Well, maybe one last thing. I hope this conversation inspires people. On the other hand, if you’ve just started your career, just work hard and have some patience. You cannot be the head of something in a couple of years, but you can take the lead on a lot of things. So that will be my last advice.
Jeroen: Wonderful. A great addition. Thank you so much, all of you.
Pieter-Jan Bakker, Chair of FLAIRS and Business Consultant at ING — once we broadcast this in a few days, I hope we’re not already sold out, because then we’ve promised something we cannot deliver on! But check the website and you’ll find out.
Damla Hendriks, Chief Risk Officer and Managing Board Member at Van Lanschot Kempen — thank you very much for your time.
Dieuwertje de Rover, Lead Wholesale Banking Strategy at Rabobank — thank you so much.
Yorick Naeff, CEO and Co-Founder of BUX (now part of ABN AMRO) — thanks a lot.
And Isil Evlioglu, Head of Private Individuals at ING Netherlands — thank you very much.
Thank you all once again, and I’m very much looking forward to staying in touch.
Voice-over: You’ve been listening to Leaders in Finance. We hope you’ve enjoyed the episode and would love to hear from you. What’s on your mind? Who would you like to hear next? Let us know in a review, an email or get in touch via our social channels. We’d greatly appreciate it. Finally, we’d like to thank our partners for their ongoing support. They are Kayak, EY, Medirect and Roland Berger. Don’t forget to check out all the other things we do at leadersinfinance.nl. Thank you for listening.