Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance, a podcast where we find out more about the people behind a successful career. We speak with the leaders of today and tomorrow to discuss their motivations, their organizations, and their personal lives. Why? Because the financial sector could use a little more honest conversation. We’d like to thank our partners for their support. They are Kayak, EY, Odgers Berndtson executive search en Roland Berger. Our guests this week managed to raise a considerable sum for their banking venture.
Jérémie: So far, we’ve raised 1.8 billion dollars. It’s pretty massive, but it’s not like we’re going spending-free and like we’re changing offices and so on. We’re still running on a very lean approach as a startup.
Voice-over: Why should a bank be obsessed with creating a smooth user experience?
Jérémie:Make sure every single pain point from the customer is removed. One friction a day keeps the customer away. A
Voice-over: And why should you always ask for advice before setting up a new business?
Jérémie:Talk to as many people as you can beforehand. Ask for advice, you’ll get a job. Ask for a job, you’ll get advice.
Voice-over: Needless to say, we’ll be asking our guest this week for some advice too. It is Jérémie Rosselli. Your host, as always, is Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: Welcome to a new episode of Leaders in Finance. This week I welcome Jérémie Rosselli, the General Manager of N26 for both France and the Benelux countries. Welcome, Jérémie, to the show.
Jérémie: Thank you.
Jeroen: It’s great you’re taking the time here in Driebergen, the Netherlands. The weather is beautiful outside and I’m very much looking forward to speaking with you today. And as a good tradition at Leaders in Finance, we spell the name of every guest that is joining. That’s Jérémie — that’s J–R-E-M-I-E — and Rosselli is R-O-S-S-E-L-L-I. I will first introduce you. As said, Jérémie is the General Manager for N26 for both France and the Benelux countries. Yes, that includes Belgium, Luxembourg, and this country, the Netherlands. Jérémie joined N26 in 2016 as General Manager France, responsible for launching and growing the mobile bank in the French market. Today, N26 has approximately 2.5 million customers in France. Jérémie has experience in international expansion and growth. He started his career in 2005 in MBA between Paris and London, and he has also led multiple market entries in his previous role with Burger King. Jérémie holds an MBA from the University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business. He is 41 years old and lives in Brussels, but travels a lot between the different countries as well as Berlin.
Where I would like to start with Jérémie is by talking about N26, because I think a lot of people who listen to this podcast know the bank, know N26. I think it’s good to get more flavor, more color about the business. And as my listeners know, I love to do that by structuring it around the different stakeholders of N26. So maybe it would be good to start with the customers. Who are actually your customers?
Jérémie: So the customers are pretty much everybody. So you, me, your brother, your sisters, your cousins. Very interestingly, when you look at the customers—just FYI—we have around 300,000 customers in the Netherlands as well. We see that they are pretty much everybody. In general, we have a large group of young professionals. That’s one of our big brackets, where lots of customers start looking into what would be the right banking accounts. That’s why they open a bank account with N26. But more interestingly, around 45% of our customers are above 35. So people think we are just a bank for millennials who live in big cities. The truth is, actually, it’s for everyone. I don’t have the numbers for the Netherlands, but I know, for instance, in France, we have customers in almost half of the cities across the country. So we see that it’s not just an urban bank—it’s literally for everyone.
Jeroen: And where is N26 present? Which countries?
Jérémie: So N26 is present in 24 countries across Europe. I won’t list all of them, but it’s pretty much all the Euro countries in Europe, in addition to Switzerland. We’re using passporting in many of the countries, thanks to Europe. I’m very pro-Europe, so I think it’s also good to say those things in the recorded podcast.
Jeroen: And can you tell me a little bit about N26? The business started in Germany, right?
Jérémie: Yes. The business started in Germany in 2015, I think. Originally—for the anecdote—it was supposed to be a card that parents would give to their kids. But the founders realized that actually, the parents didn’t give the cards to their kids and were using them themselves. They realized there was a much bigger picture, with the banking industry changing, the regulation changing. There was the opportunity to actually build a bank. The company—or the founders—got their banking license in 2016. That’s when we started to expand, both internationally and into financial services.
Jeroen: Right. And is Germany still the biggest market for you?
Jérémie: Let’s keep it that way. But France is also one of the biggest markets. I’m very happy to continue to push my own markets.
Jeroen: Yeah, I thought so. I thought you were going to say that France had taken over Germany, but… I cannot record that. Right, makes sense. And to run through the stakeholders—your colleagues, all the people you work with—can you tell me more about what kind of jobs they are in, how many people there are, etc.?
Jérémie: What I like to say is that N26 is a tech company that is doing banking. So we are very well structured as a tech company. We have a big team of product and tech people. Obviously, we’re also a customer-facing company, so we have a huge customer service and back office operations. And of course, we have marketing and international teams as well. What is really interesting to see is that we are a very international crowd. Out of the 1,500 employees, we have more than 80 nationalities. This was true even when we had just a few hundred employees. So it’s really international. Obviously younger, but I see everybody aging over time. I used to be one of the old guys back in the day, but now we are also hiring more experienced people. So it’s already scattered across all types of age in the company.
Jeroen: And here in the Benelux, or specifically the Netherlands, how many people work in this market?
Jérémie: Just less than 10 for the time being. But it’s also one of my priorities in the upcoming recruitments to hire more and more Dutch speakers to build up our presence in the Netherlands. But also, we are moving into the new world where people are working more and more remotely. So we’re also planning to hire more people based in the Netherlands, but who would have global functions or simply be based there.
Jeroen: Right, right. And the other stakeholder is the owners—like, who are the owners of the business?
Jérémie: So the first owners, obviously, are the two founders, Max and Valentin, who are two Austrian guys. I think what is really interesting to understand is that they’re still young, so they have no aim to sell the business and really want to keep it growing. The goal is obviously at some point to go for an IPO. Next to that, we have large VCs. I think what’s also interesting and key to understand is that they’re not just VCs, but really long-term investors. What they brought on board are investors from all over the world. So we have European VCs, American VCs, Asian VCs with a long-term vision—we’re going to build a massive bank—and they continue to invest. Also, what’s worth noting is that in every single round, most or all of the investors kept investing. So it really shows the trust they have in N26 and in the business model more generally.
Jeroen: So long-term investors. And you’ve raised an amazing amount of money, right?
Jérémie: Yeah, so far we’ve raised 1.8 billion dollars, with the last round being around 900 million dollars. So I think it’s pretty massive. But still, what’s really interesting is that on a daily basis, it doesn’t change that much. We just continue to scale. It’s not like we’re going on a spending spree or changing offices and so on. We’re still running with a very lean startup approach.
Jeroen: But it’s an amount that’s almost hard to imagine. Where do you need all that money for?
Jérémie: So first, I want to clarify—people often think we got the money personally. It’s for the business. One of the key areas is obviously continuing to invest in building new products. So that means hiring people. This is really where we spend quite some resources. Also, it’s about scaling the business: building the right platforms, having the right tools, the right back-office services. And of course, the last point is investing in recruiting new customers. But we’re pretty lean on that as well. When you look at the big picture, more than two-thirds of our customers come through word of mouth. At the beginning, I was the first one trying to sell it to my friends—“Hey, it’s super cool”—and then very quickly, when I had dinner with friends, they were the ones telling others. So word of mouth is working pretty well. But I think that’s also due to the quality of the product.
Jeroen: So it’s investing—and I guess you’re not profitable yet. So the money is also used for that, I assume? And is there a big part going to marketing?
Jérémie: So yes and no. What’s worth re-understanding is that in many of our markets we are already profitable. So we can really see that, very quickly, we can be profitable in most markets. So most of the money is really going into investing in new products or recruitment—with a bit into marketing as well. But even there, the return on investment is very quick—less than one year in most markets. That’s why we see that most of the invested money really goes into new markets, new products, and so on.
Jeroen: Right. So I try to stick with my stakeholder plan before I forget. The regulator is also an interesting stakeholder. You’ve been in the news a lot. And I’m just curious, how do you relate to the regulator now and in the past? And maybe you can tell me more.
Jérémie: Obviously, it’s an important stakeholder. It’s not just one. I think what is really important to understand—and I think all the people listening to us understand—is that it’s not just one person on their side and our side. It’s lots of teams from our side, lots of teams from their side. We work very much hand in hand in Germany. But what is also really interesting is that it’s not just in Germany. It’s also in Italy, in Spain, in France. I spend lots of time with different teams from the regulators as well. I think the overall approach is really constructive, and we share the same mission. What is worth understanding is that we are here to protect the customers. It’s the mission of the regulator, but it’s also our mission. I know that also from my previous experience at Burger King: regulation is really important, because in food, you can kill people. Here, it’s about customer money. So really respecting the regulation and working hand in hand—and also trying to get the regulation to evolve in a way that works for every stakeholder—is something we’re working very hard on from our end.
Jeroen: But just one more question on the regulation side—is that something that has worried the business a lot? Because a lot of banks—not only N26—but a lot of banks are obviously in struggle, or I don’t know if that’s the right word, with regulation, you know, about anti-money laundering and stuff. But is this something that was tough for the business?
Jérémie: So I understand that there’s a very Dutch context in those stories. No, in general, I think we know it’s really important to invest and to be—for us—at the forefront, even of fraud and AML. Because if you want to be a bank, I think it’s one of the key areas that you also need to develop. And really for us, it’s not just about doing what needs to be done today. It’s really about building the right platform for the future. So really investing in the right tools, the right resources, and so on, so that we can scale and do two, three, four times more customer onboardings every day—having the right platform to support that.
Jeroen: Right. Last stakeholder I would like to bring up is a very broad one, which is society as a whole. You mentioned the founders earlier in this conversation. What is the kind of broader vision of N26? What does it want to—as you know, kind of a mission—what does it want to achieve?
Jérémie: What we want to achieve in general is to change the way people act with their money. We want to be really one of the stakeholders and make sure we make their life simpler every day. We want to become, obviously, the daily account — the one that you’re using. The big picture, in general, is that we’re trying to reach 100 million customers. I know it sounds like a lot. It used to sound like a lot even a few years ago when we decided to shoot for this target. Truthfully, when I joined N26, there were less than 200,000 customers. Now we have 7 million. So I think we’re still on a good path. And the opportunity is there when you look at the overall picture. The banking industry is super fragmented everywhere compared to any other industry — it’s very local. So here we see that there’s a real opportunity for a big player like us that would be transnational. There are big synergies in terms of innovation and in terms of resources. But also, in general, most of the traditional players — sorry to all the people listening to us — are not investing. I think it’s really hard for them to change and almost cannibalize their own business by investing in digital. That’s why, in most markets, digital players are not that strong; they all belong to traditional players. And that’s why for us, it’s a big opportunity. For them, for traditional players, it’s going to be either they invest in digital or… yeah. There will be a huge wave of mergers and acquisitions across Europe, because you cannot have that many players. The critical size for most will be several million customers. So I see lots of medium-sized banks that will, one way or another, either merge or lose their customers very rapidly to new players.
Jeroen: Because that’s interesting. Would you say it’s a kind of winner-takes-all business? Because you need that size, apparently, to run a business like you’re running?
Jérémie: Somewhere in between. So it’s not winner-takes-all. It’s not going to be one player. There’s room for several players, including challenger banks like us. I think there are probably three or four spots across Europe for digital players like us. And at the same time, there will probably still be a few traditional players. But still, at some point, you need to reach this critical size. So yeah, it’s probably going to be — I don’t know — depending on the country, in the Netherlands, probably three big players, which are already there. Smaller ones will, one way or another, merge with the big three. In bigger markets like France, probably five or six. But we’re already starting to see this wave of mergers. In the end, maybe there will be some very niche players, but overall, you can’t have that many players. It’s not just in banking — if you look at other industries, there are very few that have so many fragmented players.
Jeroen: Right. And in terms of mergers and acquisitions, would you also be interested in buying existing businesses, like neobanks in other countries?
Jérémie: So what I see is that, for sure, traditional banks will start to buy those guys. I’ve seen that happen a few times, like in France recently. We’re also looking into different opportunities — we have a team for that. I think, knowing that now we are in a situation where the market, in terms of cash, is changing, there are two types of players: the ones that have a profitable business or a profitable business model, like us, and others who are facing difficulties — both because their business model is probably not profitable, and because their VCs will stop funding this type of player.
Jeroen: Yeah. I was very impressed, when preparing for this conversation, by the number of customers, the number of countries, and the amounts of money that have gone into the business. I spoke a long time ago with Noor van Boven, who was then the Chief People Officer at N26, and she spoke a lot about this topic — hypergrowth. Can you describe what it does to a business when it scales as quickly as yours?
Jérémie: It means that everything is changing every day. Even today, I think for me and for most of the people in the company, their job is changing every day. So when you come into the office on Monday morning, the likelihood that you’re going to have to change your plan before Tuesday is pretty high in general. But also by design, it’s part of the DNA and part of the DNA of the people that we’re recruiting. They know that they need to change things, and they have this thirst for improving the process, for changing the process, for seeing where we need to change things. I stopped counting the number of reorganization desks I used to have. Even in our org charts, there are no lines anymore. It’s literally because obviously we are in a matrix organization. But at the end of the day, we keep changing orgs, processes, responsibilities very quickly. So it’s really like most of our energy is obviously A, on supporting the customers, but B, really into changing the organization from the inside to make sure we can cater for this hyper growth.
Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance with Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: And why did I join N26 at the time?
Jérémie: I was looking to go back into tech in general. I was looking to go into—like, I wanted to be one of those first employees. You know, when you look at Google now, like, hey, this guy was one of the first hundred employees. And you look at this guy and think: wow, it’s crazy. So I was looking into one of those opportunities to be part of the—I wouldn’t say founding team—but really like the first employees. So I did almost like a VC job for six to nine months. I was looking into what are the new companies. The tip that I had was: I went on Crunchbase and looked at the big investments, because by design, if some VCs put in some big tickets—back then it was like 40 or 50 million—those guys must be a good opportunity. And the story and the anecdote: there was no job. I literally sent an email to HR saying, hey guys, I’ve launched a B2C business in France out of Germany. I’m an engineer. I sold banks. One way or another, if you want to launch and scale the French market, call me back. Three months later, they called me back, and one week afterward I moved to Berlin.
Jeroen: Oh wow. That’s a fun story. So you never followed up by asking, why are you not answering my email?
Jérémie: No, no. I remember I was enjoying a drink on the terrace and HR called me like, hey, would you be interested in being in Berlin next week for some interviews?
Jeroen: I love that story. So you really did the whole thing. They never found you. You found them.
Jérémie: Definitely. There was no job offering, not even a job description. Back then, the team was literally a three-person team. And this is where we started to build the international expansion.
Jeroen: And you were very successful in scaling France. What was the key driver of your success? What do you think made it such fast growth there?
Jérémie: Two things. A, common sense, because people believe in two big strategies. The truth is, you need to go one step after the other, just using common sense. I remember my first two weeks, I just retranslated the website, because at some point you don’t invest your money in something that is not even well translated. So really going one step after the other. And the second one is really just manpower, doing everything. Because you’re also a startup, so you don’t have like 200 people. So you have to prioritize and do things yourself. But it was really like pushing every single item one after the other. So obviously, we’re not just talking about the translation. It was building and improving the service and the product we have to gather the French market, working on the customer service, and then obviously building the marketing engine that was going through that. But it was really one step after the other.
Jeroen: And how does that work with customers? Is there a point where you get the first customers in, but where does it really take off? Where is that point?
Jérémie: It’s very funny, because when you talk to everybody, people think there’s like this silver bullet that will accelerate everything. The truth is really like one microstep after the other. It’s really how you make sure every single pain point from the customer is removed. In my team, we have a saying, it’s like “one friction a day keeps the customer away.” So we really try to improve their experience and the product one step after the other. And it’s really all those micro changes or mini changes, or just changes that we do one after the other that work. Obviously, then you build a team that goes with that. Now we have a much stronger team. But it’s really about improving everything we can, one after the other. We are not even at the stage where we’re investing massively in marketing yet. We’re also preparing for that. But just to give you a sense, it’s pretty much the same across all the geographies I’m managing. There’s probably like two-thirds of the countries where people don’t know, have never heard about N26. So the opportunity is still there right now for me. It’s just about getting people to know about N26.
Jeroen: I must admit, I do have an account with N26. I have accounts with many banks, I must say that as well, including your competitors. But yeah, I remember that I got these messages in my app asking me to introduce N26 to a friend, and then I did. And I think you got like 15 or 25 euros if you did.
Jérémie: Yeah, we have a bit of friend referral, but also when you look at the friend referral, we give a bit of money, but it was not really for people to—it’s not the big driver for people to sign up. It was just like a nice way to thank people. But when you look at our competitors, the money they’re offering is probably ten times more. So it’s really more anecdotal—it’s just to thank people.
Jeroen: Yeah, I like the idea. Apart from the money, I like the idea that if someone wants to refer you, it tells a lot about his own experience as a customer, right?
Jérémie: Yes, and this is a tracker that we’re looking into. Also because we know that by design, most of the people that are being referred are top customers, because they have the right introduction, they know why they are joining. And we see that by design, they are top customers.
Jeroen: Before N26, you worked for Burger King. I think that’s a completely different industry, but maybe there’s also—you also mentioned already—that you had to deal with regulation as well. So there’s probably also some similarity, but still very different. How was your time there?
Jérémie: Surprisingly, I think it’s super, super, super similar to the banking industry.
Jeroen: Heavily regulated.
Jérémie: It was heavily regulated back then. So Burger King, for those who don’t know, is also almost like hyper-growth. It doesn’t look like it from the outside, but it was bought by 3G, a big PE firm that is really known for building these hyper-growth companies and streamlining operations. So that’s why I joined those guys back then. It’s very similar in many ways.
First, it’s regulated. As I was mentioning—and you’re happy that it’s regulated—because when you go to a restaurant, you know that you won’t get sick. That’s very critical.
It’s a B2C business. I think this is where I really learned about B2C. In the restaurant industry, people don’t go back if they have a bad experience. That’s really representative of this age or this period. And even now in banking—if you have a bad experience somewhere—you move to another shop. That’s now possible with PSD2 in banking. So you need to make sure you cater to the customer.
One of the big learnings I got from there: it was mandatory to spend one or two weeks every year in the kitchen or in the restaurant. So really down to the ground, meeting the customers—that was one of the key takeaways for me. And I try to cascade that to my team as well. I try to put them in customer service on a regular basis, because that’s really the source—the right approach to understand what’s going on with the business. So it’s super critical.
And the last thing for me was really how you approach the business and the operations: it was very data-driven. You take the top five pain points and solve them one after the other in a very data-driven way. So for me, it was more than a learning experience—it was a change in my career.
Jeroen: Right. And before Burger King, can you take us there as well?
Jérémie: Before Burger King, I was an investment banker. Probably like lots of people listening to us today. I started my career in MBA, first at HSBC in Paris, then in London. It was 2006, 2007. I still had some hair back then.
Jeroen: Interesting times.
Jérémie: That’s what I was about to say. Funnily enough, back then I remember we all knew that some crisis was coming. That’s why I decided to go back to Paris. And then people acted surprised when there was a crisis in 2008. But there was no surprise. The whole industry knew it was coming. Same as today—people know the economy is overheating. We’ve been splashing money across all the markets, all the countries. Very similar to what you see today. So I went back to Paris. I did some MBA, but it was more targeted toward private equity deals—so LBOs. Also very interesting to see it from the inside, because at the end of the day, LBOs are also not exactly hyper-growth, but almost. It’s about how you optimize your business, how you understand it from the inside. Also very interesting. Lots of learning. Working with direct managers who understand their business well. So yeah, amazing time.
Jeroen: It’s interesting. So all the jobs you’ve done so far have a couple of things in common, but one thing for sure is growth, right?
Jérémie: Yes, definitely. I think that’s what I discovered in LBO. You’re here, and even personally, I’m not here to do plus two percent. I’m not the type of guy who’s doing nine to five.
Jeroen: So what’s the driver for you personally? What do you like so much about growth?
Jérémie: It’s really about having a project and seeing a thing happen. I’m really amazed, for instance, at N26, to build something. And when you meet people in the street or in cafés, they pay with your N26 card. So you see it physically—something is happening. I think it’s really interesting to change the world—maybe not the world, but at least to see the impact of what you’re doing is pretty critical. So I’m really more of a project guy, coming for big projects. And the more it goes, the more it’s pretty clear to me that I’ll just choose projects.
Jeroen: Is it your engineering training as a background that makes you like to build things? Is that also what I hear?
Jérémie: Yes, but more optimized. I think there are two kinds of engineers. There are guys who are capable of going from zero to one. I wish I were one of those—truthfully, I’m not. But I’m the guy who is capable of going from one to one million. I did it already twice. So I think now it’s really my job, and really what I enjoy, and why I know what I know.
Jeroen: That’s interesting. So you would not be the guy to probably start a new fintech business, then? Or maybe with others?
Jérémie: Maybe with others. For sure, I wouldn’t be able to do it myself. Still, very interestingly, launching multiple markets and going through all the steps I would have to go through if I were alone—like looking for offices, doing the employment contracts, and so on, recruiting people myself—at the end of the day, I still did it. I went through all the paths I would have had to go through.
Jeroen: Right, right. And I already mentioned your engineering and your MBA background. Why did you choose to do an MBA?
Jérémie: So when I was an investment banker, you know there’s this golden handcuff where you’re in the industry and, at the end of the day, when you’re reaching thirty-ish, either you go down that path or you make a turn. I think for me it was really—I knew I wanted to become more of an industry leader than just doing some MBA, because you know you’re on the other side. You’re helping the other leaders, but you’re not the one making the decision. You really want to be, at the end of the day, the guy taking the decision. So that’s why I decided to go for an MBA. And also, the interesting choice was going to the US, because it was critical for me to have an international career. So really here, and when I look at all my former colleagues from investment banking now, they’re like: oh, you did right, it’s much cooler and so on than if you’d stayed with us—almost jealous.
Jeroen: I see. Because you went to one of the most prestigious business schools in the world, right? These are my words, but I hope you don’t disagree. And did you have a lot of choice? Did you apply to others as well? I mean, you said you wanted to go international, so Fontainebleau was probably not the place to go, but yeah.
Jérémie: Yeah, I was definitely admitted to Fontainebleau, but it was too close for me, and at the end of the day, that was really the choice. There were a few other choices in the top US universities. I think one of the learnings from there as well was that you have to go there and visit the universities. I remember going to some campuses, and there’s no way I could live in the countryside. I need to live in the city, and Chicago was really the right fit for me—really data-driven, really into finance, but also an experience, not just focused. So it was a clear choice. I had most of the top universities except Harvard. I think the big joke at Chicago is like, we didn’t get Harvard. Sorry, fellows, but that’s true. But yeah, at the end of the day, I was really happy to go there. It was a fantastic experience, a fantastic network as well, and that’s why I managed to get a very international career.
Jeroen: Right. I remember the director of the school I went to said, “If you don’t learn anything here this year, at least you have a place to sleep across the globe after this year.” Is that also true for you—that the network is one of the most important things you get from an MBA?
Jérémie: Not directly, honestly, because they teach you how to network. I think that’s something you don’t really learn in Europe in traditional universities. So they really teach you what an elevator speech is. They teach you how to literally handle and behave at cocktails, so you can start making friends, doing some follow-ups afterward, and so on. So, a very interesting practical experience, and then the network starts to play a bit later. Because at the end, when you’re just post-MBA, the truth is you still need to continue learning, which we all did. But now, I’m more or less 10 years after my MBA, and we start to see the impact of the network from there. But it’s not the only network. There are multiple others.
Jeroen: Right, makes sense. And to go all the way back to when you, Jérémie, were a kid—are you willing to share a little bit about how you grew up and where you grew up, etc.?
Jérémie: I wish I had some crazy stories, but truthfully, I grew up in Paris with a very cool family. I soon realized I wanted to be an industry leader, and that’s why, in my career and studies, I directed my studies toward that. So, in France, if you want to go the business route, you can either be an engineer or go to business school. It’s pretty much similar, and that’s why I decided to go more into the engineering part, because it was my strongest area—math and so on. But I think I was lucky enough to discover the internet—fast internet—before everyone. I was in the lucky neighborhood where they launched fast internet in 1996. So, well before everybody else, and I knew that was the future, where I wanted to be. That’s why I decided to become a communication engineer. Although it was during the internet bubble, just after the bubble burst, so it was really a clear choice, and I’m still happy with this choice now. Yeah, I wish I had some crazy stories.
Jeroen: Maybe I can ask: have your parents been doing the same things as you now, or were they in different fields?
Jérémie: Absolutely not, and I think that’s a difficulty for me and for them. My father worked at L’Oréal, so completely different, and my mother was into antiques. So really different backgrounds, and they had no clue how to handle a kid who is doing engineering work. And even now, or at least until recently when they moved to Berlin for N26, they were asking me, “Why are you going to Berlin to work with the startup guys? Don’t you want to have a well-paid job, work less in a traditional company?” It’s like, my guess is it’s probably not the future, and I’m happy to take the bet now. Now they’re saying, “Hey, maybe you were right back then.”
Jeroen: Yeah, but the benefit of hindsight is always good. And the antique stuff, is that something that also interests you?
Jérémie: Absolutely not. That’s a disaster for the family, but they are very focused on it.
Jeroen: Right, well, maybe you can get some great stuff for your apartment or house at some point.
Jérémie: That’s also something I clearly refuse, so it’s a big change at home.
Jeroen: Right, and I wanted to talk about drivers as well because you seem to be very energetic and very ambitious. You want to get things done. What drives you in this?
Jérémie: So in general, what drives me is really to work with very smart and sharp people. I think when I look at all the companies and teams I’ve worked with, every single time it was the best team, the best people. Even at HSBC, they had the biggest credentials worldwide back then. Same with HawkPoints, where we did lots of deals while all my friends were fired. So really, learning and being the sharpest you can be in the industry. The second one is having an impact. You want to do something that works and that works at scale. I think that’s also something very critical for me, and I have fun. I think I will never stop. I will never get a boring job or something where I won’t be able to have fun and be in a situation to have fun. I think, for instance, at N26, as GM, I can choose where the office is located. So we are in downtown, not some half-hour train ride from the suburbs. It’s part of the DNA to have fun. We have massive company parties, but also, we are now scaling at a stage where even local teams can have a good time. So really, you need to be happy to wake up in the morning and go to work. And that’s also one of the things I ask all my peers and people in my team—if they are doing right, then they’re going to work well. So, my job, even as a leader, is to make sure they’re happy to come to work.
Jeroen: That’s a great bridge because I wanted to talk about this as leaders in finance, right, about you as a leader or a manager, whatever you want to call it. Do you remember when you were first managing a team, and what were the things you really had to learn if you now reflect on it?
Jérémie: So obviously you learn and there are lots of insights that you see. Luckily, one of the big things is that most of the biggest team I had to manage grew with me at N26. So when I joined, I was alone. Luckily, I was legitimate to go through every single job. And every time I hired someone, I knew what they would be doing. So it was very junior people, so that worked at the beginning. I think then the big jump was a few years ago when I started to recruit more senior people, even more senior than me. So I’m now, or I went through the past, where it was really about hiring people who were leaders in their own function, and now my job is to help them. They tell me almost what to do, in the sense that I have to follow most of the recommendations. So it’s really like before I was doing some daily management, and now it’s more about showing the path, the direction, and making sure they have the right resources and tools to move forward. So like, it’s really like the job changes every day, even if the title does not. I know my role today has nothing to do with the one I had five years ago.
Voice-over: You’re listening to Leaders in Finance with Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: Were there things, again, with hindsight, that you think, oh my god, I should have done that completely differently as a manager?
Jérémie: No, honestly no. Maybe the one thing is probably being less risk-averse in the recruitment. You know, I think all the people that are listening to us, recruitment is a bit of a risk, like you never know whether it’s going to work or not. Obviously, I was very risk-averse for the first few employees, because at the end of the day, it’s very tricky. But with hindsight, I would have probably been quicker and probably taken more risks in the recruitment. And if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. But at the end of the day, maybe you save more time for yourself, and it’s more scalable.
Jeroen: Right. Right. Makes sense. And we always have a pleaser and a teaser at Leaders in Finance, and the pleaser is always the same: do you have a particular book or books or authors you like, you know, books you like to give to people or books that inspire you or that you’ve learned a lot from? And maybe I should first ask, do you like to read?
Jérémie: Yes and no. That’s something I discovered after, like, I didn’t like to read. Now I try to really enjoy reading. I think it was really about learning what I like to read. It was something I rediscovered before and throughout the MBA, because you have to. Or, I’m really into more, I would say, business and concept books. I think that’s going to be part of the teasers or pleasers. One of them… no, I mean, yeah, the pleaser would be: do you have a particular book? Yes. And so here I think I love to share these two books. The first one is The Zero Marginal Cost Society. I think it’s worth it for everyone to understand how industries will move with technology. Everybody who read it, or I shared it and offered it, like, they told me there is enough before and after. So did you give it to many people? Yeah. I keep ordering more and more, so that’s the first one. The second one is the easiest one, but there are many, many around that, like Nudge by Richard Thaler, who also happened to be my teacher at Chicago Booth and later won a Nobel Prize. But I was really, like, it’s really how you can change people’s lives in an easy way. I think one of these concepts goes directly into finance, how you can enable people to save money for their retirement. And his concept is really to opt-out. So you choose for them that they save automatically every month, and if they want to change, they have to decide. Because if you ask them how much they want to save, it’s never going to work. So he really understands, and also his mentors, Daniel Kahneman and I don’t remember the other guy, they really found some way to change people’s lives, and they understand that it’s more economic. So, like, the theoretical guy doesn’t work, and it doesn’t work perfectly. And I really encourage everyone to dive into behavioral economics. It’s the concept of behavioral economics.
Jeroen: But is that also a concept that you’re using at N26?
Jérémie: We use that all the time. Not for the sake of using it. It’s just like we are trying to make life easier for our customers. We don’t do it just for the sake of notching people, but we’re just trying to improve the experience overall.
Jeroen: Right. We always have a teaser as well, and I had written down the following very simple one, but I’m curious to learn what you think about it, which is: banks are very scared of the fast growth of N26.
Jérémie: True. That’s an easy one. So I saw the attitude change over time. I remember when I started, it was an anecdote—like, who are those new guys? OK, let’s meet them. They’re nice. Then they started looking into us, like, “Oh, maybe let’s try to buy and kill them,” which you see a lot in the banking industry. So at some point, I started to see their interest in trying to invest. Yes, they were coming: “Hey, can we invest at the same valuation as the last round?” No, sorry. And now they start to realize that we are really competing with them. So they became followers. I think they started to copy some of the features, some of the USPs, but still, most of them never really took the initiative to build their own platform and try to innovate. I think the first few who are able to do that will have a big market share in the future.
Jeroen: So, are they able to compete, or are some able to compete? Because a lot of bankers are listening to this podcast. That’s why it’s extra interesting.
Jérémie: They could be in a position to compete, but you need two things. You need, a) the willingness to invest, and also, sorry for the people who are listening to us, I understand if you’re 55, maybe you have limited personal interest in building a multi-year plan with massive investment. So I understand their personal position. But, for the company-wide success, you would really need to invest in these massive digitalization plans. And the second thing, you really need to get the whole— and I think this is the difficult one as well— to get the whole company, the whole bank, to be willing to change. I think for us, it’s natural; we only hire people who want to change. But I also understand that in more traditional companies or banks, making sure you embed and take everyone with you on this change journey is also the toughest part.
Jeroen: Right. And I remember I worked for one of the banks, and later I worked for a fintech business, and I saw at the bank the issue with all the legacy systems. But at some point, when the fintech was growing, I also saw some legacy there. Is that something you’re already dealing with, given you’re only 7 years old, approximately?
Jérémie: Yeah, it’s called technical debt on the tech side. Yes and no. Obviously, it’s much less massive than any traditional player. I think here, when you’re changing a bank or a fintech, the change is really about: Do you invest in the new product so you continue to grow, or do you take the resources to clean the technical debt? Because it’s not massive, but it’s always a trade-off in terms of resources on what you do. But we’re trying to keep it lean there, because at the end of the day, if you want to grow fast, you also need to remove as much technical debt as possible.
Jeroen: Right. What’s the biggest challenge for you to become the largest bank in Europe?
Jérémie: It’s really like I think for us, we are just trying to go as fast as possible, so it’s really not even like an external factor. It’s really about us and how much we can structure ourselves and how we can cater to the exponential difficulty that we are facing. But it’s really just about us—how much we can do, and we spend lots of time and resources restructuring our team all the time. But I don’t think it’s a matter of change per se; it’s just how fast we can go, and it’s really interesting also to be facing the outside because from the inside, we always feel like we are not growing fast enough. But I believe from the outside, people still look at us very highly in terms of growth.
Jeroen: So in terms of competitors, what are the biggest competitors then?
Jérémie: Honestly, there’s room for two or three big ones, you know, the English ones. My question is rather, who would be the third and the fourth one? Because clearly, there’s EasyJet and Ryanair.
Jeroen: So you basically look at all the banks, you look at your internal… you know, get everything right internally because that’s obviously always a big challenge if you scale quickly. And then there’s Revolut and businesses like that. These are the three major challenges, then I would say major competitors, quote unquote.
Jérémie: Yes, but honestly, we really don’t look into competitors because we know right now, as I was mentioning, two-thirds of the people have never heard about N26. So we know it’s really not about gaining market share against any direct competitor. It’s just about us—making sure people understand our product, know our product, and get the best customer experience.
Jeroen: I’ve asked about 107 people who have been on this podcast the same question, always nearing the end, which is: do you have particular tips for people starting their career today, and preferably in financial services?
Jérémie: First, try to talk to as many people as you can before. There is always a saying: ask for advice, you’ll get a job; ask for a job, you’ll get advice. So by design, try to get some advice. I think that’s one thing. The second one that I’ve learned as well is: don’t try to be a sheep and follow the crowd. I think the industry and industries are changing a lot, so I really think it’s worth doing your homework, but still, what I see with the new generation as well is that people tend to forget they need to learn some of the basics. I know it’s not fun to work long hours in investment banking, but I’ve learned so much, and I use it so much every day. Taking some time to learn is also very useful. So whether it’s investment banking, consulting, or those kinds of things, they are always useful for the future.
Jeroen: Great. How do you balance your personal life and your work life? Because I’m pretty certain that you do put in a lot of hours to make N26 a success. How do you balance that with your personal life?
Jérémie: So, for sure until now, I was not an example of work-life balance, especially with N26. Even Birkin is built around international people, so it was like—I remember the first years at N26—it was like work hard, play hard, and it was really like this huge community almost living together. Now, the good thing is my girlfriend is taking care of my life balance for me, so I don’t have the choice in any way. So I think it’s good also to accept that you cannot work seven days a week. I think finding your own way to have it—whether it can be you or an external factor—so that you don’t put in 100 hours a week, is also a good thing.
Jeroen: What are the things you like to do in your personal life?
Jérémie: Honestly, sleeping, resting, meeting my friends… yeah, I wish I had something fancy. Truthfully, I try to recover from the rest of the week and just have fun.
Jeroen: How do you keep fit, physically and mentally? What do you do?
Jérémie: So, keeping fit, I think the big changer recently was the personal coach. Because of COVID, obviously, it was very tricky to go to the gym. But for the fun fact, my personal coach used to be a South African who moved to South Africa, so now we’re doing it remotely, and it works pretty well. That’s also something I can encourage everyone to do—you can even do that from home, so you’re saving lots of time. It’s very flexible.
Jeroen: But it’s a coach for sports, right?
Jérémie: Yeah, only for sports.
Jeroen: Or do you also have coaches for work?
Jérémie: No, no, it’s only for sports, but most of them, by design… I wouldn’t say they are psychologists, but they know if you’ve had a rough week, it’s going to be hard for them to push you to sweat as well. So in some ways, they also push you to have a healthy life balance, diet, and so on.
Jeroen: Jérémie, thanks so much for your time. I really enjoyed it. Thanks to one of our partners—I’m pointing at it right now, but you can’t see it as a listener—but Boca Coffee, it’s a B Corp certified company for coffee. We’ll give you a small present for your time, and thank you so much.
Jérémie: Thanks a lot.
Voice-over: You’ve been listening to Leaders in Finance. We hope you’ve enjoyed the episode and would love to hear from you. What’s on your mind? Who would you like to hear next? Tell us in an Apple or Google review, via email, or through our social media channels. We’d greatly appreciate it. Finally, we’d like to thank our partners for their ongoing support: Intrim Valley, EY, Ottersbern’s Executive Search, and Roland Berger. Thank you for listening.