Wibout de Klijne

Jeroen: Thank you very much, Wibout de Klijne, Chief Compliance Officer at Triodos Bank, for taking the time to speak to Leaders in Finance in the lead-up to the Leaders in Finance Compliance event on September 18th this year, where you’ll also be on stage. To start off, could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit more about your role?

Wibout: I’ve been with Triodos for six years now, always in the role of Director Compliance. As most people in compliance will know, it’s a second-line function—meaning we’re responsible for overseeing risk management. Triodos operates in five countries, so my team is spread across all five. Together, we manage compliance throughout the organisation. It’s an interesting role, especially because Triodos is a values-based bank. That makes the compliance questions we deal with quite unique.

Jeroen: You describe Triodos as a values-driven bank—and I’d say there’s arguably no other bank in the country with such a clearly defined mission. Does that actually make the role of a compliance officer different compared to other financial institutions?

Wibout: It definitely makes a difference. From the start, I really liked the people I worked with—they’re friendly. Or to put it another way: there are no assholes here, something genuinely refreshing. In our profession, you often run into people who try to bend the rules as far as they can. That’s not necessarily bad, but it comes with a certain mindset. People here are kind and well-intentioned—not always overly professional in the traditional banking sense. They’re here to change the world, and the bank is simply the vehicle they chose. Which, arguably, is a very smart idea. If you put your money with us, we only invest in things that help make the world a better place. That’s taken seriously. In that sense, the bank is transforming economies.

Of course, a bank also comes with prerequisites—rules and regulations you have to follow. And that’s not the primary reason they joined. Co-workers in Triodos are here to make a difference. So, our role is different as well, we try to make sure compliance doesn’t become a goal in itself. It should be seen as a prerequisite—not the purpose. Compliance should never be the goal. That said, we sometimes do have to treat it as a goal—make it more top of mind.
Even the kindest, most well-intentioned people can do very risky things—simply because they aren’t aware of the rules. I once compared it to running a red light. People are shocked when you say, “Hey, you just ran a red light.” They didn’t see the sign. And I’m convinced that if they had, they would’ve stopped 100 meters earlier—they really don’t want to do anything wrong. But it still happens. Sometimes the reaction is, “Yeah, but if our intention was good, is it really that bad?” Well—yes. You still get the ticket. Even if you meant to stop but didn’t, you still get fined. Same applies to us. That’s why this job requires a different approach. Harsh punishment for kind people who make honest mistakes doesn’t work. That’s something I really try to keep in mind.

The second point is this: anything with the word “control” or “risk” in it doesn’t usually energize people. The word “control” often triggers a reaction around trust, “Oh, don’t you trust me?” But in reality, it’s not about trust. It’s about being able to explain what you’re doing—to others, to regulators. When I started here—maybe in my third week—someone said to me, “you’re here to help prove our clients are actually good. I don’t really know why that’s necessary—but apparently they don’t trust us.” That conversation stuck with me. It made clear that doing this work here means pushing different buttons—it’s not just about enforcing rules, but about making things explainable in a context where trust can’t be assumed. We have off course have made quite some improvements in the last six years.

Jeroen: If we zoom out and look at the bigger picture, what would you say is the biggest compliance challenge facing financial services today?

Wibout: Across the financial sector there are a few major challenges. It starts with the question: does banking have a future? We’re seeing more and more peer-to-peer banking, crowdfunding, cryptos— multiple developments that are maybe not direct threats, but definitely disruptive. Banking doesn’t necessarily have to exist, and that’s one of the fundamental issues the sector is facing. It’s still very much geared toward survival, while maybe the better, more efficient way of doing business is without banks.

The second point—this might sound a bit strange—is actually where I see potential. It’s closely aligned with what Triodos stands for: transformation. If we invest in the right things—towards a better economy, nature, and society—we can make a real difference. Regulation is now pushing us in that direction, which I see as a good thing. The financial sector could benefit and become a genuine force for good. That’s the kind of change I hope the industry embraces. You don’t get that in peer-to-peer models. The usual driver in the economy is still “We need to make more money than last year,” with constant growth as the goal. But there’s now space for ideas like degrowth, or doing more with less—less work, more systems. That’s where the transformation lies.

Jeroen: It felt like there was real momentum around regulation in sustainable finance. But now, it seems things are being watered down. CSRD, CSDDD, the omnibus process—it all feels less sharp, less ambitious. The language has softened, partly due to political shifts like Trump’s return. We’re also seeing companies scrap diversity plans. Do you think this transformation—the shift you just described—is still quietly moving forward? Or are we seeing a real reversal?

Wibout: No, I do think the transformation is still happening—though it started out with much more optimism. And yes, the watering down is real. It comes from two directions.

First, there’s the moment of, “Oh blimey, if we actually calculate this, it’s going to be really hard to achieve.” So, the tone shifts toward being more “realistic.” That’s understandable—this is long-term work, and most companies (and countries) aren’t built for that. Take the US: often short-term, populist, pulling in the opposite direction. But transformation requires commitment—and that’s the second issue. It’s hard to keep momentum going.

Do I like that? From Triodos’ more activist point of view, no. But I’m still glad the movement is progressing. What matters is that the mechanism—like Triodos’ model—stays in place.

Jeroen: I’ll close with our final question—one we ask everyone. Do you have any tips for people starting their careers and looking to work in compliance or a related field?

Wibout: Yes, a couple. First, it really helps to have first-line experience—or at least hands-on understanding of how the business works. Having worked in the first line is definitely a plus.

Jeroen: So your first tip for working in compliance is… not to start in compliance?

Wibout: Exactly. If you want to be a good compliance officer, don’t focus only on technical knowledge—focus on competencies. Having first-line experience, or at least some hands-on understanding of how the business works, really helps. Everyone can learn. But the best compliance officers I’ve met weren’t necessarily the most “technically” knowledgeable. Their value came from how they used their skills—not just what they knew. It’s easy to outmaneuver someone with superior knowledge—a tactic some compliance officers enjoy—but that’s not what makes someone great at the job. If you want to be the technical expert, go work in the first line. That’s where the real risk is taken, and where we need the deepest expertise. A good compliance officer adds value without needing to be the most knowledgeable person in the room. That’s where competencies come in—and to me, that’s what really matters.

So how do you develop those competencies? It starts with gathering knowledge—not just content, but logical thinking, structuring arguments, and understanding the reasoning behind decisions. When someone in the first line says, “I feel comfortable with this risk,” you need to unpack that—get to the logic behind it. Of course, you still need content knowledge. If someone makes a very logical case that clearly goes against the rules, you need to spot it and respond.

But more often than not, it’s better to ask questions than to voice your opinion. That helps the first line reach its own conclusions. The best compliance officers I’ve met weren’t just knowledgeable—they were strong challengers. “Adversary” is too strong, but they knew how to push back and act as a countervailing power. And at the same time, they were likeable. They weren’t trying to play the bad guy. Some people think that if there’s no conflict, they’re not doing their job. I completely disagree. It’s not about creating fights—it’s about constructive challenge.

Jeroen: Great. We’ll leave it here for now and pick things up again on 18 September at the Leaders in Finance Compliance event, where you’ll be actively involved. For now—Wibout de Klijne, Chief Compliance Officer at Triodos Bank—thanks so much for taking the time to speak with us.

Wibout: It was my pleasure.