Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance, a podcast where we find out more about the people behind a successful career. We speak with the leaders of today and tomorrow to discuss their motivations, their organizations, and their personal lives. Why? Because the financial sector could use a little more honest conversation. We’d like to thank our partners for their ongoing support. They are Kayak, EY, MeDirect, en Roland Berger. Your host is Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: Welcome to a new episode of Leaders in Finance. I’m very, very happy you’re listening. Today, we’re reflecting on the CHRO or HR event that Leaders in Finance hosted — literally about an hour ago — right here in Soesterberg. I’m reflecting on this event with three people who were actually on stage with us today. I want to learn a few things about the event and maybe hear some interesting thoughts they had during the day. But first of all, let me introduce them to you. Tom Alstein, partner at Deloitte — welcome, Tom. Ruben Verkuijl, CEO and founder of Kayak — welcome.
Ruben: Thank you.
Jeroen: And René Janssens, CEO and founder of Lepaya.
René: Thanks, Jeroen.
Jeroen: Great to have you all. First of all, Tom, could you maybe introduce yourself a bit more for the listeners beyond what I just mentioned?
Tom: Yeah, sure. As you said, I’m Tom, partner at Deloitte. I’m responsible for what we call our Organization and Workforce Transformation practice. So it’s pretty much everything related to organization, workforce, and transformation at Deloitte. That’s my role and a bit of my background as well.
Jeroen: Wonderful. Ruben?
Ruben: Yes, thank you, Jeroen. It was a wonderful day today. My name is Ruben, of course. Thirteen years ago, I founded Kayak, a staffing company. At the moment, I’m also an investor in several tech startups, building a tech recruitment platform myself, and I’m an enthusiastic surfer.
Jeroen: Wonderful. René, last but not least.
René: Thanks, Jeroen. I’m the founder and CEO of Lepaya — technically a blended training platform, but basically, we help corporates upskill their people and make their workforce future-ready. Today was especially exciting for me because I started Lepya based on my former role from the other side of the organization, where I was CHRO for a 6,000-person company. So I can really relate to many of the challenges that were discussed today.
Jeroen: Wonderful. I should mention that both Ruben and René have been on the podcast before. We’ll include the episode numbers in the show notes if you want to learn more about their personal stories and their companies. So, all three of you were on stage today, as I mentioned earlier, and I’d love to know what you actually did on stage, with whom, and what the setup was like. Tom, what was your role today?
Tom: Yeah, I had the privilege of being on stage with three CHROs: Suzanne van Niekerk-de Veld from ABN AMRO, Iman Eddini from DLL, and Desirée Molman from Van Lanschot Kempen. The main topic was really the evolving role of the CHRO — how the role is changing, and what is important in driving the transformations we’re all witnessing. Just before our panel, Janine Vos, CHRO at Rabobank, gave a keynote — which I thought was a great overview of where the world is heading, including the business and HR worlds. So yes, I had the privilege of speaking with those three CHROs about topics such as the CHRO as a strategist, as a capability builder, and we wrapped up with a great discussion on the CHRO as the Chief Transformation Officer.
Jeroen: Can you share one of the questions you asked, and maybe one of the answers you appreciated most or found particularly interesting?
Tom: Ooh, there was a lot of interesting conversation, but if I look at the key takeaway, it’s really about stepping up and acting as a driver and architect of the future. So stepping out of the shadows as a CHRO or HR specialist and trying to take the reins in shaping that future — because that future is, to a large extent, human. So HR also needs to be front and center in that discussion.
Jeroen: But does that kind of imply that it’s not happening enough yet, this stepping up and really taking the stage?
Tom: It’s quite a diverse picture, I think. You also saw that in the preparation, right? Some of the CHROs really pointed out, “We’re already at the table.” It’s more about making an impact at the table. Others are still getting there. But I think traditionally, what we’ve seen is a dominance for a very long time from the finance column. Then, we went through a phase of more dominance from the tech column. But now you see a shift toward looking at the organization more realistically. HR and the profession as a whole are becoming more and more central in driving the future of organizations.
Jeroen: Thanks. Ruben, what was your role today?
Ruben: I was a member of the tech and AI panel, together with René here in the room as well, and Martine Zeegers from Rabobank. We shared our thoughts on what tech and AI can bring to the audience today. We shared our journeys and our visions. And to share mine — my journey — it’s quite amazing even to me: 16 weeks ago, I started experimenting with AI. I had no software, coding, or programming experience. But with just four to five hours a week, I’m now able to generate code, create software programs, and build two to three websites.
And it’s not about my journey, as I told the audience — it’s about your journey. So please, go out, experiment, and try this too. Two hours a week. Leanne Caret even mentioned 30 minutes a day. Janine Vos also said: we go first, and then we inspire others to follow. One of the main messages of the day, I think, is: experiment and adopt AI. Don’t fight it or see it as some evil force — embrace it.
Jeroen: That’s great. And I think a lot of people said today: you need to be a role model in all kinds of settings, right? You need to show up, and you actually did. I was wondering — you said 16 weeks ago, you didn’t know much about it — pretty much my words — and then you started learning yourself. What made you take that step?
Ruben: I was just curious to find out what else is out there beyond ChatGPT — or, for example, Cloud or Anthropic and other language models. There’s already a broader scope to the AI landscape. That was my starting point. I had this repetitive task every week: sending out commercial leads or vacancies to my commercial team. And I thought, okay, let’s automate this. It must be possible.
I had no idea how to do that, but I just started. I tried building a program to make that task — not my job, but one of the weekly tasks — obsolete. That gave me the chance to free up time for myself. And I did it — it’s done now.
Jeroen: I can imagine it’s really exciting when it actually works. Great that you’re not automating your entire job, just a few tasks. I like that. Anyway, René, you were on the same panel — could you tell me more about your experience on the panel, and what you brought into the discussion?
René: Yeah, I thought it was a very interesting panel. And to build on what Ruben was saying, I think that’s the interesting stage we’re at with AI—not just highlighted in the panel, but really echoed by all the speakers. The key theme running through today is that we have AI, and we now really need to differentiate: where is AI going to automate and take over tasks so we can scale and be more effective, versus where is AI going to augment what we already do so we can deliver more client or customer value?
What I found interesting was when we polled the audience: everyone was, to some extent, thinking about, working with, or trying to drive AI adoption in their company. But when we asked, “Do you actually have a proper sense of what that means for your workforce? Do you know how you need to change, shape, upskill, or adjust the way your people work today?”—only three or four hands went up. That’s the big question mark in the room. We all know AI is here. We’ve moved from traditional AI to Gen AI, and now we’re talking about agentic AI. So the real question is: What is the future going to look like, and what does that mean for the main asset of any company—its workforce?
Jeroen: Because, I mean, you have the privilege of working with a lot of clients. Do you get a lot of questions about AI-related topics? Or is it just business as usual for you?
René: I mean, my “business as usual” is helping companies prepare their workforce for the future. So if that counts as business as usual, then yes. But I do think AI is going to be as profound a shift as the introduction of the internet or the personal computer 25 or 30 years ago. So from that perspective, the questions might feel familiar, but the answers are entirely new.
And I think we need to acknowledge two things. First, we don’t yet have all the answers. But we do need to start acting now—because if we don’t, we’ll be left behind. Second, the pace of transformation is only going to accelerate. One example I like to give: two years ago, Gen AI emerged. A year ago, everyone wanted prompting trainings. Six months later, that was already outdated—AI could do it for you. Now it’s about agentic AI. And if we already struggle with getting people to work across silos and collaborate, how are we going to work with software that’s even more abstract and further removed? The overall impact is massive—similar in scale to previous technological shifts—but the types of answers and solutions we need are new. That’s what makes it so exciting. As someone said earlier, it’s actually a vibrant time to be in HR, because a true paradigm shift is underway.
Jeroen: And in your own business, are you already using AI a lot?
René: Well, the honest answer is yes—and definitely not enough. If we look ahead to 2028, three years from now, there will be entire parts of our value chain where we say, “This isn’t where we differentiate ourselves,” and we’ll want AI to take over. Whether that’s parts of operations, support functions, or something else—AI should handle it. But then there are areas where we really do differentiate—where we bring real value. Deeper analysis, greater impact, better didactics. In those areas, AI already plays a big role, and we believe it can play an even bigger one. That’s also my call to action—for everyone in the room, or really anyone thinking about this: Do you know what your unique differentiators are? What are the elements of your client value proposition that make people choose you over a competitor? Are you doubling down on augmenting those strengths with AI? And are you building the human intelligence to help that AI shine? That’s still something we all need to figure out. Everyone is wrestling with it in one way or another. But if we get that part right, I think there’s a bright future ahead for all of us.
Jeroen: Cool. Well, I know you always use the term upscaling, so you’re probably upscaling your own people now. You’re doing it for a lot of companies, but I think you have—how many—a few hundred people now or something? So you need to upscale them as well, right, and get them on that journey.
René: Yeah. And get them to buy in as well. In that sense, as the Dutch saying goes: In the plumber’s house, the tap leaks—it also applies to us. We need to focus just as much as anyone else on upscaling our own people.
Jeroen: Tom, I was wondering—given AI was such an important part of this CHRO event—which actually surprised me, because I thought it would be a topic, but it really became the number one topic today in most conversations. I was wondering, same question as to René: within Deloitte, and also within your own teams, are you already using AI a lot—for yourselves, not just for your customers?
Tom: For ourselves, definitely. And for quite a while already. You can imagine that Deloitte is a data insights and analysis-rich environment, right? And that’s a lot of the essence of what we do. So we have a huge amount of data and insights—our own, from our clients, etc. And we also have different member firms, right? Every country kind of has its own Deloitte, and they’re all developing and inventing in their own ways. That creates a pretty broad AI infrastructure and agents across different topics. So yes—it’s definitely a large part of our reality as a service provider, no doubt.
Jeroen: Great. So all three of you are already working with AI in your businesses. Back to the program today—were there other things that stood out? Something you’ll definitely remember after leaving this building, René?
René: I’ll just jump in with a quick one, which relates to something Tom said earlier. You talked about having a seat at the table—and the last speaker pointed out: have you ever been in a team meeting where someone wasn’t speaking up? How valuable or how annoying was that? So if you have that seat at the table, do speak up. It’s your duty, and people expect it of you. That point was clear. And I think that visual analogy—if you translate it to your own teams—is something that’ll really stick with me.
Tom: That’s a great one. And I’d probably translate that into two things. First, it clearly stood out that the human voice is needed. And second, it’s also about having the confidence to take that seat, right? To actually use your voice at the table.
Because I think one of the big takeaways—and this came up everywhere today—is that AI is, of course, the magic word. But there’s a nuance here: it’s the combination of the artificial and the human that’s shaping the future of work. So how do they actually work together?
We’re already seeing the trajectory—from AI to Gen AI to agentic AI. And now we’re even starting to see terms like bionic pop up, signalling an even deeper convergence of the two. So for me, another key takeaway is that we, as a profession, really need to step up. We’re at a pivotal moment—one that will fundamentally reshape how we work, how we collaborate, and even how we perceive our organizations. And in essence, that’s not a technology question. It’s much more a question of social structure. So HR needs to think deeply—not just about AI use cases—but about what it will fundamentally mean to be an organization in the future.
Ruben: One thing that really stood out to me was Leanne’s closing message.
Jeroen: Leanne Caret—she’s a Fortune 100 board director and former CEO at Boeing Defense, Space & Security.
Ruben: Local time, 5:30 AM, and she was full of energy, inspiring the audience. Then the topic came up: what characteristics are important to bring to the table to make an impact? She introduced the 4G model, which was totally new to me. 4G stands for grit, gumption, grace, and gratitude.
Okay, grit—that’s clear to all of us. But gumption was a completely new concept for me. So I used a very powerful source these days—ChatGPT—to help me out. What’s gumption? It turns out it’s about courage, determination, and gezond verstand. So how do we translate that nicely? And then there’s grace and gratitude. So the 4G model.
It really gave me a strong insight—about how to communicate with our people, how to grow as a person, as a leader, as a professional—and maybe even as a family member too. Yeah, very interesting. It really struck me.
Jeroen: And a side comment from her was that numbers three and four—grace and gratitude—may actually become more important as you progress in your career, which makes a lot of sense to me. But thanks for pointing that out.
René: Yeah, and it’s very interesting because I think it connects to what both of you were just saying. In the end, it’s really about that human element that, together with AI, is going to drive real value. And I think these are some of the key human values that underpin that. What we need to look at are human skills—networking effects, connection, critical thinking, gezond verstand in a broader sense—and our ability to tell stories that bring people along. That fine line between how we merge technology and humanity even further—that’s the next step after automation. I think that was the real red thread running through everything today. Definitely food for thought.
Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance with Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: When I was listening to all the different CHROs on stage, I kept wondering—to what extent are they really ready for the so-called AI revolution, or whatever term you prefer? Do you think they’re ready?
Ruben: Honestly, some are, some aren’t. For example, Janine—she seems to be. I think she’s already adopted AI tools, not just Copilot, but more than that. She’s actively thinking about how to prepare the entire workforce of her organization for this new era—this technological era that’s paired with human values. That’s such a strong structure.
So I completely agree with René. That combination is powerful: reflecting on yourself—Who am I as a person? What are my capabilities?—and, more importantly, What are my core values? And then embracing AI. Using both to make a difference.
Tom: And I’d actually like to turn the question around. Why shouldn’t CHROs be more ready than anyone else?
Because if you look at it, technology is becoming commoditized. That’s your example—sixteen weeks to implementation, low-code, no-code platforms. The technology part is getting more accessible. So the real question is: how do we use this technology—AI, agents, autonomous systems—in a societal and organizational context?
How do we get the most out of technology, and the most out of our people? That’s essentially an HR question.
So we should really encourage HR leaders to step into that space with confidence. Because this isn’t just a tech issue—it’s a question of collaboration, of how we reshape work, how we connect, how we produce. So yeah, turn the question around: why wouldn’t they be the ones most ready at the table?
Jeroen: Well, I don’t know if you were asking that question to me or just rhetorically, but let’s say I could answer. I would say that anyone at C-level—which a CHRO is—should be a role model in moments of major change. That would be my answer. But René, you wanted to say something?
René: Yeah, I might’ve shared this on a previous podcast—and if not, go back and listen!—but I once worked for a Chinese company, and it was very different from what I generally see in the Western world. There, they have a very clear structure: the CEO sets the strategy, the CFO puts the financial resources behind it, and the CHRO or CPO provides the human resources. Most of the other C-levels focus on execution. That CHRO role is seen as super strategic.
And if you want to move up to senior management, you’re expected to have spent two or three years in HR. It’s almost a logical step in your career path. Back then, I thought that was a smart structure—which is also how I ended up in HR for a while. But I think it’s even more relevant now. The previous tech phase—automation, data, internet—was mainly driven by process, operations, and tech functions. The next phase is about how we merge that with human intelligence.
And if there’s one seat that should lead that, it’s the CHRO seat. Are we ready? Probably not. Are we ever ready for paradigm shifts? Definitely not. But this is the one thing we need to get ready for—100%.
Jeroen: Last question from my side as we near the end of this episode. I’m curious—on a lighter note—was there something you found particularly funny, or surprising, or just a moment that stood out beyond the core content? I’ll just keep talking so you have time to think.
Ruben: I’ve got one! Again, Leanne—she made a funny point about starting her career before the internet. She shared an anecdote about how some organizations used to tell people not to go online. It’s funny now, but also a fascinating reminder of how far we’ve come—and how big the shift is we’re going through right now.
René: That’s a good one. I wouldn’t call this “funny,” but more of a meta-observation. What I loved today was the diversity in the room—age-wise, background-wise, and in people’s attitudes toward tech and people. Very diverse. And the alignment in vision and the challenges ahead was striking. Everyone was talking about the same core themes.
And with all the people on stage—what was it, 15, 20? You know better than I do—the individual personalities really came through. And when you’re going through a major transformation, you need people who step up with passion and purpose. I really felt people brought their whole selves today. And that’s the only way we’re going to get through this kind of transformation.
Jeroen: Spot on. Fifteen people—I just checked. Good guess. Must be your strategy consulting background.
René: Physicist at heart, right?
Jeroen: There you go.
Tom: Yeah, I completely agree. I also felt we had very authentic leaders on stage. They really dared to be themselves. And I think that’s a great example for all of us—bring your whole self. We even saw some vulnerability, which I really appreciated. No one claimed to have all the answers. And I think that’s something we should say out loud more often in our own organizations. We’re all on this journey together. It’s an expedition. We don’t know exactly where it’s going, but we’re engaged, and we’re in it.
Jeroen: Before I ask whether there’s anything major I’ve missed in this episode—which I’ll do in a second—I’ll just answer my own question.
Two things stood out to me. First: of the 15 people on stage today, I believe 12 were women. And in all the events we’ve done, I’ve never seen that before. It’s usually the opposite, especially in financial services. That really stood out.
Second: I heard the word “ally” mentioned three times today. “You need allies within your organization.” Maybe not funny, but very interesting. It speaks to the idea of building what I’d call pockets of trust in the larger organizations we work in.
Anyway—before I thank you all for joining this podcast, is there anything we’ve really missed? Now’s the moment!
Ruben: I’d like to add one last thing from my side—just something for the audience, for the listeners of this podcast, to think about. It’s the recent prediction from Bill Gates, about seven or eight weeks ago, where he said the workweek will change dramatically. He predicts we’ll move toward a two-day workweek. Whether that’s true or not isn’t really the point right now. The point is: it’s time to start thinking about it. And not just thinking, but talking, reading—and doing. So go out and venture.
Tom: For me, the takeaway for everyone here would be: please be confident. Be confident that you have something valuable to bring to the table. Because if we want to build a successful and resilient future, we absolutely need the human element to be embedded deeply in everything businesses do. So show up—and bring that confidence.
René: The mission of Lepaya is to change the way companies develop their employees, and in doing so, make workforces more productive and happier. And I’ll be honest—I’m confident that we don’t yet know exactly how to do that. But with the brains, energy, passion, and authenticity I saw in the room today, I believe Holland will get there.
Jeroen: Those last words were from René Janssen, CEO and founder of Lepaya. Thanks so much for taking the time, René. Sitting next to you, Ruben Verkuijl, CEO and founder of Kayak. And next to you again, Tom Alstein, partner at Deloitte. Thank you all for taking the time to reflect with me on this event. I’m very much looking forward to seeing you again next year. Thanks again.
Voice-over: Thank you. You’ve been listening to Leaders in Finance. We hope you enjoyed the episode and would love to hear from you. What’s on your mind? Who would you like to hear next? Let us know in a review, send us an email, or get in touch via our social channels—we’d really appreciate it.
Finally, a big thank-you to our partners for their ongoing support: Kayak, EY, MeDirect, and Roland Berger. Don’t forget to check out all the other things we’re doing at leadersinfinance.nl. Thanks for listening.