Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance, a podcast where we find out more about the people behind the successful career. We speak with the leaders of today and tomorrow to discuss their motivations, their organisations and their personal lives. Why?
Because the financial sector could use a little more honest conversation. We’d like to thank our partners for their ongoing support. They are EY, Mogelijk Real Estate Finance, Duna and Lepaya.
Your host is Marije Tolsma-Groen.
Marije: Hi everyone and thank you for tuning in to this Reflections podcast following the Leaders in Finance HR event. Today’s the 18th of June, a Thursday, a warm Thursday, dare I say, and we’re here with some of the people who played a role on stage or next to the stage. And we’re going to talk a bit more about what we learned today and what stood out for us. Let’s make a round to see who we have in the room here.
So tell me a bit more about who you are and what it was that you did on stage. Karlijn?
Karlijn: Yeah, my name is Karlijn van den Berg. I work at ABN AMRO, where I’m the Head of Talent, and today I had the honour of doing a talk which I called “Talent is in the Eye of the Beholder”. So it was really about exploring multiple perspectives around talent and development in the current day and age.
Very interactive part of the session.
Marije: And next to you is Isabel, Isabel Workel-Tijhuis.
Isabel: Yes, hi and thanks for being here. I’m the Group Director of Human Resources at Triodos Bank, and today I was one of the people in the panel on the topic: what keeps a CHRO awake at night? And also reflecting on the previous keynote that we had, which was really inspiring.
Marije: And that previous keynote came from Deloitte, and that brings me to the next speaker at the table, Tom.
Tom: Yes, nice to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Tom, partner at Deloitte indeed, and we are the sponsor of this lovely event.
For us it’s all about kind of connecting the clients that we work with on a daily basis, and that was quite successful, I think, today. So a lot of connection.
Marije: Yes, definitely. And well, that was all kicked off by one of your colleague partners from Deloitte, who joined us from Tokyo with her keynote speech. Can you maybe tell us just a bit briefly what she spoke about, Tom?
Tom: That’s a tough one to summarise because indeed she covered a lot of ground, and also with a lot of energy and passion. But in essence, Nicole has been talking for many years now about what you could summarise around really redesigning work. And she really had a passionate story around kind of where we are currently at with AI and what the deeper impact of that is on the work itself, on the whole workforce and the interaction within the workforce, both from kind of machine times machine times human, as she calls it.
But also some organisational features that need to be in place, right, both from a cultural perspective and from an organisational perspective. So quite a holistic point of view on what it really means to be a business in this day and age.
Marije: Yeah, the theme actually that Nicole launched became sort of the narrative of the day, dare I say. The basis of her presentation was the recently issued report, the Human Capital Trends report from Deloitte. What were some of the things that stuck with you from that presentation?
Karlijn: Well, I think it started already with the title, “The Human Advantage”, and it was a lot about AI and applying technology. But every time it was really about how to make sure that we amplify humans in organisations and technology is supporting that, and how you can do that. I think there were a couple of very inspiring examples of other companies.
So I think two that stood out: one is the bank that really linked reward to the AI adoption. I thought that was really, really interesting, also with the impact that it created in terms of business impact. So I thought that was really inspiring to hear.
And the other insight was around culture. So how do you really make technological adoption? So going from culture — I don’t know the exact words that you used — but cultural debt, I think, to cultural strength or asset.
I thought they were really inspiring and triggering perspectives to really think about a bit more.
Marije: Yeah, I think, Isabel, that very much came back into that fireside chat that we had. You were joined by another CHRO, Nathalie Amador de Vries from Alpina Group. And I asked both of you ladies: what keeps you awake at night?
Trust was probably one of them, right? Could you tell us a bit more about what keeps you awake at night as a CHRO in this day and age?
Isabel: Yeah, I think it’s especially also if you look at how the technology is going so fast. So, as an organisation, you keep up with the technology. But we know that culture is something that changes very slowly, and change orientation is not in the nature of every person.
Some people see it as very inspiring and an opportunity, but that’s not for all of us. So how do you also make sure that you take everybody along in this cultural change and help them also see these technological advancements and AI as an opportunity? And how do you do that in a human way and take the people along so they can embrace it and relate with it instead of maybe being paralysed by fear?
Marije: Yeah, I think one of the goals of today was to make it very practical. I think Nicole kicked off with that. She gave us some very practical examples, which were followed by some cases as well during the programme of some other people who presented on stage.
Question to all of you: is there anything that really stood out from what you heard today that maybe you say, oh, I wasn’t aware of that before, or it’s really something that triggered something with me?
Isabel: I think what she brought very strongly was that this is not just something where HR helps with training or parts of it.
Marije: And then you mean Laureen? Is that what you mean?
Isabel: No, but also the keynote. But I think also Laureen also later on very much emphasised that I think HR has maybe never been as interesting as it is now. There’s really an opportunity as HR to take the role in shaping the ecosystem, the workforce ecosystem going forward.
And nobody knows what the way of working will look like in three or five years from now. We can only guess, but we can best prepare. And I think as HR, together with the business, we can really be the architects of designing that new world and that new way of working together.
And I think that was very inspiring in basically the whole programme of the day: how technology and human development come together, and that you cannot do one without the other. And how important leadership and culture and trust, psychological safety, all those kinds of things are in that to help people in this evolution that is taking place.
Marije: What stood out for you, Tom, most from the programme?
Tom: No, I think, actually, your comment, Karlijn, your statement about “focusing on strengths weakens high potentials”, which triggered a thought with me that I have for a while now. Is that like, what are we actually optimising for, especially in the world of AI? Are we optimising for the performance here and now?
Or are we optimising for the readiness of the future? Like both on an individual level, team level and organisation level. Because what I see currently is that we are playing, AI is being played as the ease card.
So, okay, we can outsource all these things to AI. Things I’m not good at, oh, goes to AI. Things I don’t like goes to AI.
Admin goes to the AI. And I think in the performance in the here and now, that helps. Because in the performance here and now, it makes me more efficient.
But at the same time, if you want to achieve things and you want to grow, you actually need to feel the pain. Because you need to feel the pain and you can’t just outsource everything to AI. So, that’s what that thought triggered that, like, hey, we also need to purposely entrench pain, otherwise people will not grow.
Marije: Interesting. So, did you change your mind? Did you beforehand say, oh yeah, we need to play on our strengths rather than our weaknesses?
Tom: No, my interpretation was a little bit more on another, it was triggered, but a little bit more on another context. Like, if you look at our business, we used to be kind of like a clear pyramid. And people went through a learning curve where there’s a lot of fun, but there’s also a lot of pain.
You need to go through the learning curve and then they will get to a certain level. But our current model from a delivery perspective is actually more of a diamond. So, less juniors, more mediors, which is great from a delivery perspective, but, like, who’s going to be the next generation then, right?
So, we need to optimise for now, but we also need to optimise and give ourselves some bet, if you like, for future readiness.
Marije: Yeah, yeah. You didn’t really share your personal thoughts. You triggered something with people, but would you say: play on people’s weaknesses to develop them and to make them ready for that future that Tom describes?
Karlijn: Well, both, of course. It’s very important for people to know their strengths and to build on their strengths, but I think in terms of real development. So, I totally agree with what Tom said from multiple perspectives.
So, from effectiveness, short-term, long-term, you also need to know your weaknesses and work on them in order to progress. And of course, this doesn’t go for everyone. So, that’s why I also said it’s for high potentials because, like, not everybody has the same ambition or drive to progress, which is fine.
And so, definitely, I think it’s important to have both, but not to — in HR, we tend to be a bit idealistic and think, you know, if we then have everybody in their strength, then we get the best outcome. And I think definitely that’s not true, not in the short term and definitely not in the long term, for the same reason that you gave, Tom, that it is about development and growth in the end and how to get better at things. You need to also address the things you’re not good at.
Marije: I see Isabel eagerly wanting to add something to the conversation.
Isabel: I also feel that this is also in a broader perspective, because I think if you think about the role you want AI and digitisation to play, for example, I mentioned in the fireside chat that at Triodos, we also have things we don’t want to do with AI, where we’re very explicit. And one of the things is, for example, we don’t want AI just to be used for FTE reduction or efficiency measures. So, there must always be a positive value to the company, to society.
And I think there also, as HR and also companies in general, we are there to make that choice. Do we choose to add value to society and to make it, in the end, a better place to work? Or are we just using this to become more efficient?
And then we might run into the same situations with the computers. Everybody thought, oh, we will have an easy life because the computers will do all the work. And in the end, we only got busier.
So, I think there’s a new opportunity to really shape that way of work and also to add value together.
Marije: In a different way, yeah.
Karlijn: And maybe if I can bring that perspective to the table, I think it is also what you’re saying. Not necessarily what people sometimes want to hear, because there is cost pressure, what have you, and they’re looking for opportunities. And then you come with a longer-term question or perspective, like Tom was just saying, okay, nice that we optimise for the now, but what about the future?
I think that’s also a role HR can play much more vehemently to push that perspective. Right, right.
Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance with Marije Tolsma-Groen.
Dit is het vervolg; het begin overlapt met het einde van het vorige stuk. In de afsluiting staat nu ook Toms volledige naam: Tom Alstein.
Nog vier vragen om samen op te lossen:
- Karlijn wil Laureen uitnodigen om te spreken bij ‘Edinburgh’ volgens de transcriptie. Hoor je hier ABN AMRO, of iets anders?
- Marije noemt een dame van ‘Almeida’. Welke organisatie hoor je?
- Wat zegt Marije over Micha vóór “or was very convinced that money is the key driver”? De transcriptie geeft “Well, prayed for”.
- Wie zegt “Good one”, direct nadat Tom zegt “instead of AI taking over”?
Hieronder alvast het gecorrigeerde deel, met die plekken gemarkeerd.
Karlijn: Well, both, of course. It’s very important for people to know their strengths and to build on their strengths, but I think in terms of real development. So, I totally agree with what Tom said from multiple perspectives.
So, from effectiveness, short-term, long-term, you also need to know your weaknesses and work on them in order to progress. And of course, this doesn’t go for everyone. So, that’s why I also said it’s for high potentials because, like, not everybody has the same ambition or drive to progress, which is fine.
And so, definitely, I think it’s important to have both, but not to — in HR, we tend to be a bit idealistic and think, you know, if we then have everybody in their strength, then we get the best outcome. And I think definitely that’s not true, not in the short term and definitely not in the long term, for the same reason that you gave, Tom, that it is about development and growth in the end and how to get better at things. You need to also address the things you’re not good at.
Marije: I see Isabel eagerly wanting to add something to the conversation.
Isabel: I also feel that this is also in a broader perspective, because I think if you think about the role you want AI and digitisation to play, for example, I mentioned in the fireside chat that at Triodos, we also have things we don’t want to do with AI, where we’re very explicit. And one of the things is, for example, we don’t want AI just to be used for FTE reduction or efficiency measures. So, there must always be a positive value to the company, to society.
And I think there also, as HR and also companies in general, we are there to make that choice. Do we choose to add value to society and to make it, in the end, a better place to work? Or are we just using this to become more efficient?
And then we might run into the same situations with the computers. Everybody thought, oh, we will have an easy life because the computers will do all the work. And in the end, we only got busier.
So, I think there’s a new opportunity to really shape that way of work and also to add value together.
Marije: In a different way, yeah.
Karlijn: And maybe if I can bring that perspective to the table, I think it is also what you’re saying. Not necessarily what people sometimes want to hear, because there is cost pressure, what have you, and they’re looking for opportunities. And then you come with a longer-term question or perspective, like Tom was just saying, okay, nice that we optimise for the now, but what about the future?
I think that’s also a role HR can play much more vehemently to push that perspective. Right, right.
Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance with Marije Tolsma-Groen.
Marije: Of course, we always want to make it worthwhile for people to come to an event like this. And my question to you is: was there for you personally — maybe, you know, everyone wants to walk away with maybe an action or an idea, or maybe they want to meet a specific person — value in being here and picking things up? Was there a moment for you, or maybe a conversation, or maybe you met with someone that you say, oh, this surprised me, or this was valuable in today’s setting?
Tom?
Tom: There were a lot of interesting interactions. It’s a good question. I like the variety of the day, but if you look across the board, for me, what stood out and what I walked away with, and had a lot of discussions around, is that a lot comes back to AI, right, which is maybe good, maybe not good.
But I think organisations really see it as tech adoption. And while it is, in all these examples, it’s really around capability building, and not so much AI capability building, but just being able to continuously adapt on a personal level and an organisational level. So I think we need to move away from — it’s been called that a couple of times — tech adoption, training, change management into, yes, it needs to be in the flow of the work, but it is also actually a broader capability. It’s an adaptability capability that is going to make the difference.
Marije: Yeah. And does it really add value to the business strategy overall? And what kind of value would you like to then deliver, Isabel?
Isabel: Yeah, for me, what really stood out was also the pragmatic model of the six ways of influencing by Laureen Rwatirera, by Laureen, indeed. Very pragmatic, but really showing that it should be both. It’s the what, and people should know why the what is so important, but then also how are you going to do it?
And I felt that the way they also did it in their company was, on the one hand, kind of competing. There was some pressure in there.
Marije: Competitive element in there.
Isabel: But in a very energising way. So I really — and that’s also what I hope — that in the end, you can create enthusiasm, that people also are willing to go on that route instead of thinking like, oh, do I have the cognitive capacity to adopt all of this AI? I think in the end, everybody can work with AI.
It’s more about how are we going to do it? How is it fun? How does it add value to yourself to give you energy, but also add value for the company and what you’re doing with the company for society?
So yeah, and those six very clear blocks, they were very helpful, very helpful.
Marije: Yeah, I agree. What stood out for you, Karlijn?
Karlijn: Yeah, I think in general, I think there were many different, like Tom was saying, many, many interesting, different things to further think about and explore. But we definitely are going to invite Laureen to come and speak at [organisatie — vraag 1].
Marije: Yeah, she was a bubble of energy.
Karlijn: Bubble of energy. But I think what was interesting is that, you know, the pace of her presentation was high, but what she was describing is also very high pace. So I found it very impressive.
I spoke to her afterwards. And she also shared, like, it would be great for us to have a little bit less pace and maybe for you guys to have a little bit more and find each other in the middle. Because of course, it is very intense what they’re experiencing, and we’re in a heavily regulated environment.
But I think there’s a lot we can learn from an industry like hers.
Tom: One thing that also stood out to me, that was actually confirmed also with the last speaker, actually triggered by your question around, like, what is the thing you should not do? And then she called out, like, hey, you should always kind of trust your people. They can deal with it.
Just have the honest conversation.
Marije: Be open and clear.
Tom: And I think that is important, right? Because we are navigating a future, which is also the beauty, that nobody really knows. But just being open to it.
And then indeed, as she called out as well, I see that as well. People will help.
Marije: They will help.
Tom: They will step in and say, okay, if that’s the situation, we’ll do it together.
Karlijn: Yeah, as long as you take them seriously.
Isabel: Exactly. Don’t play them for a fool because you’ll lose people. That is for sure.
And there’s also indeed the trust. And do you have that open atmosphere? Can you give each other feedback?
Do people feel entitled to speak up about dilemmas, whether they question AI or outcomes? So the more open and trustful the relationship is, the better that’s possible.
Marije: And that starts really with a specific kind of leadership behaviour, I would say. This is also very much a platform to create a community. I think one example happened live on stage, where I believe a lady from [organisatie — vraag 2] was reaching out to the speaker from ING, saying, you know what, we should try and create a little group because we’re all dealing with the same kind of issues and the same kind of problems.
And we can learn from each other and challenge each other. Let’s say we move forward a year from now. You said it.
We don’t know what’s coming. Five years, ten years. Maybe we can try and see what’s coming within a year or what is coming our way in the next year.
What are your hopes for the conversation of this community in a year’s time? If we sit here again next year, what will we talk about?
Tom: For me, I hope we will see examples of actually unlocking human potential. Because I think that is what AI can do.
Marije: Yeah.
Tom: And I hope that we’ll see that instead of AI taking over.
[Spreker — vraag 4]: Good one.
Isabel: Yeah. Yeah. And basically building on that, I hope that we see a community coming and also a world of work coming where there is, for example, in the Netherlands, less burnout and more energy in work, more people who are feeling that they really contribute in what they’re doing.
Because I think AI really gives us an opportunity to step into that way. But it’s something that we have to create together.
Tom: That was also shocking in the numbers that Nicole — I know the numbers, but I’m just looking at a slide again. Wow. The number of people who are considering leaving their jobs because of well-being.
Yes. But imagine if they actually leave. Then the well-being gets even worse.
Disconnected from community, disconnected from… That’s a serious number.
Marije: It ties in a bit as well with the talk that Desirée from Van Lanschot Kempen did, which was more about employee benefits. But how do you make sure that people want to stay with you? I think Micha from ING was very strong.
Well, [formulering — vraag 3], or was very convinced that money is the key driver for people to either choose an employer or stay with an employer. I think Desirée had a different view. Was that something that’s…
Well, how would you react to what was said there? What is the main reason that people want to be with a company and be in good mental health, basically?
Karlijn: Yes. The research that we do, and that was not really coming up in the conversation up until now, is really career perspective. The reason people leave, when they leave, is lack of career perspective.
It’s not money. It’s growth opportunity. With us, it’s growth opportunity.
And it’s perceived. It’s not that the opportunities are not there, but they are not accessible to them. That’s for us a big thing.
Maybe if I can come back to my hope for next year. So I would hope, building on what you’ve said, but a different perspective from the HR community, that there will be many more hands going up when you ask the question: who sits at the table shaping the conversation and shaping the transformation? I hope that this has also empowered people to take that position rather than waiting for it to happen.
Tom: Which is fascinating, because that’s been a discussion for the last million years.
Isabel: Yes, exactly.
Tom: What will be the breakthrough?
Isabel: No, but therefore, I also thought, this is really a moment to grasp it. And I thought, that message, I thought, oh, it’s actually a logical moment to bring it, because nobody’s ever going to ask you. But if you have your ideas as HR director or with your HR team, then discuss it with the business.
And indeed, we’ve heard so often today how important it is to really build on the strategy of the company. And then what does the company need, the company strategy, and how can HR play a role in that? But because we have all these human capabilities, skills, and lots of tools to help in shaping an organisation, this is the moment that we can step forward.
Yeah, what you just said on why people come or stay, and maybe not. I think we see very clearly that people also come for the purpose and the mission.
That’s, for our company, very important. Therefore, also in the past couple of years, when the labour market was really tight, we still had a lot of interest from people coming to us. And so, hence, I also see that intrinsic motivation is really important.
And if people feel that the work that they do really contributes, yeah, that makes a big difference. But we also see, I also recognise what you say, Karlijn, development opportunities are, of course, very important. And in a smaller organisation like ours, there is sometimes less opportunity.
Although I believe that, as you also said, if people grasp the opportunities to develop themselves, there will also be more opportunities, even if an organisation is a bit smaller.
Marije: Yeah. And I think with all the practicality that we saw today, even the models that were presented to us by different presenters, that could be an opportunity to create that seat at the table as well and to really say, okay, this is the plan for how we are approaching that man versus machine, AI. What was the name?
I don’t know how Nicole said it exactly, but I think there’s a way to take charge and to really say, okay, what is our business strategy and how are we going to implement this for our company? So, yeah, hopefully, maybe in a year from now, some people will have done that. People who are listening might have been at the event, might not have been at the event.
Maybe to round off this podcast, it’s quite warm in this room, so I think we need to move to the final question. But what would be your key takeaway for people who weren’t there, or maybe a call to action or something that they can take along after listening to this?
Tom: For me, it’s engage and shape in the end. So this is indeed, as you say, the moment in time where humans will make the difference. So engage and shape.
Marije: Engage and shape. Nice.
Isabel: Yeah, I’d very much like to build on that. So create the enthusiasm to embrace it and to see how it can amplify and help us in the value that we’re creating instead of creating fear or “I cannot make that”. I think also the example that was mentioned on IKEA, where they really managed to reskill people to very different roles.
Interior designers. Into interior designers, indeed, from customer service. I think that really triggers.
These are examples that it can really happen. So we can make sure, and HR has to play the role there, to reskill people because we have a shortage in the labour market. So let’s just rethink how we can use the human resources, but basically the human capabilities, in a good way.
Karlijn: So for me, I think it really boils down to something Nicole said as what is the core, the essence of the role of HR, which is the guardians of human value. And I think that is a realisation which hopefully empowers and helps us as an HR community to have the courage to take that step forward and to really shape the future and make sure that what Tom and Isabel just described actually happens. Wonderful.
Marije: I think that is a great high note to end it on. I want to thank you, Karlijn van den Berg, Isabel Workel-Tijhuis and Tom Alstein, for joining me in this Reflections podcast. Thank you very much for listening and looking forward to seeing you again at an event next time.
Voice-over: And don’t forget to check out all the other things we do at leadersinfinance.nl. Thank you for listening.