Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance, a podcast where we find out more about the people behind successful careers. We speak with the leaders of today and tomorrow to discuss their motivations, their organizations, and their personal lives. Why?
Because the financial sector could use a little more honest conversation. We’d like to thank our partners for their ongoing support: EY, Mogelijk Vastgoedfinancieringen, Duna and Lepaya.
Your host is Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: Welcome, listeners, to a new episode of the Leaders in Finance podcast. Today, we have an extra episode with a topic that I think could be relevant to literally everyone listening to this podcast. Sometimes we have topics that are of interest to some people, but this one definitely is not.
It’s interesting for everyone, and I’ll tell you why. Because today I’m joined by Chris Lovett.
Welcome, Chris.
Great to have you on the Leaders in Finance show.
Chris, as I said, I’ll introduce you shortly. The reason we’re talking today is because you just published a new book called Relentless, subtitled The Power of Doing Less in a Workplace that Demands More.
Chris is an executive coach, author, and speaker. I just watched his TED Talk on YouTube, which is really something I would definitely recommend watching and listening to. His insights on modern leadership and sustainable high-performance cultures have reached more than a million viewers across online platforms.
Following the success of his Amazon Top 10 bestselling debut, Discovery of Less, in 2021, Chris delivered a well-received TED Talk, as I mentioned earlier, called More Impact in 2022.
Today, he works with organizations and, as he calls them, ambitious professionals around the world to evolve leadership skills, simplify how they work, and focus on higher-value outcomes to sustain energy online, offline, and in the office, in order to excel at what matters most.
So I was really looking forward to this conversation because, as I said, it’s applicable to everyone. And I’m definitely one of them. Even for this meeting, I asked you to schedule it 15 minutes later. So that tells you a lot about, as you call it in your book, The Power of Doing Less in a Workplace that Demands More.
Anyway, Chris, again, welcome to the show. First of all, you wrote this book, but before we go into the book: how did you come to write this book, the previous book I just mentioned, and what has your whole personal journey been like?
I’d love to know and learn all about it.
Chris: Thanks, Jeroen. Well, firstly, if I can get you to do all my introductions, that would be incredible. Thank you so much for that.
The journey of Less, I guess, started in quite a comical fashion. I was clearing out my flat in London and stepped on a CD case. Everyone remembers collecting CDs back in the day. I broke it, hurt my foot, and realized that I had way too much clutter in my home because I couldn’t even put these CDs on a shelf. They were on the floor, causing me injury.
It got to the point where I thought, this is getting ridiculous. I’m supposed to have everything society says I should have to be happy: the salary, the status, the title, the car, the home, all the stuff, all the modern tech, all the DVDs, all the CDs, the books, et cetera. But it was making me really unhappy.
So that weekend, I decluttered my living space without really knowing what I was doing. I sold a few things: books I’d never read, DVDs I’d never watched, and some video games I’d already completed. I realized I got a bit of extra money back from selling those things, and I thought: money, I can use that to do the thing I really wanted to do, which was take a break from work and go traveling.
So, in my late thirties, I did something that most people do during their student years or gap year: I took some time off.
I sold pretty much everything I owned: the home, the furniture, most of my clothes, the kitchenware and cutlery I never used. I quit my job and went traveling around the world.
I came back with this realization that I had had such an incredible experience while owning virtually nothing. Just a few clothes, a bit of tech, and some money. Yet I gained so much more: confidence, experiences, and better stories.
Then I went back to work because, of course, you have to pay the bills. I returned to corporate life and realized that the clutter had simply moved from my home into our diaries and professional lives.
I sat in teams and meetings that were unnecessary. People were working late every day. They weren’t taking breaks, couldn’t eat lunch properly, and were going from one meeting to another, back to back to back. They were unable to say no.
I started observing these behaviors, and they felt so similar to our personal lives. We consume things, buy stuff we don’t need, and keep things we never use. Work was the same. We attended meetings that were unnecessary, said yes to work that wasn’t really valuable, and collected more clutter — except now it was career clutter.
So I started coaching and supporting teams and businesses, ironically in financial services, on how they could stop doing so much of that cluttered work. How they could do less and say no to more things that didn’t really matter or create impact.
What surprised me was how many people genuinely struggled with time and with saying no.
I supported lots of very senior people in simply doing less. By doing that, they created more time for what mattered most. They got time back. They were able to leave earlier, spend more time with family, take breaks — which felt almost unreal — and even have lunch breaks again.
So all of this stemmed from clearing my own physical space, which then allowed me to clear my professional space. By doing that, I was able to achieve much more — and so were the people I worked with.
Jeroen: Great story. And as I told you just before we started this podcast, it’s an amazing personal journey that, in a way, also became your career.
A couple of follow-up questions on decluttering your own home — the physical stuff — before we move into the work-related side.
First of all, was it painful in any way, that first moment when you started selling your belongings? I know you just said it gave you a great feeling afterwards, but at the moment itself — getting rid of almost everything physically — was that painful in a way?
Chris: Yeah, it’s a fascinating journey in itself, Jeroen. Once you own something — an item you’ve had for a long period of time — you start to build an identity around it, a relationship with it. Take clothes, for example.
We often have clothes that have meant something to us for years. I had clothes I used to play football in a lot. By the time I reached my mid-thirties, let’s just say I wasn’t as fit as I had been in my early twenties. But I still had all those shirts from my twenties that still fit me, even though I didn’t play football nearly as much anymore.
I looked at those shirts almost as if they represented a part of me from when I was younger and fitter. I didn’t want to relinquish them because then it felt like I was relinquishing the story of me being younger and fitter.
So the emotional attachment to the things we keep in our homes weighs on us quite a lot. It can be really difficult to let go of stuff, especially once you realize it’s not actually worth much to anyone else.
But what I found was that once I let go of something, within 24 hours I had forgotten I even owned it.
I couldn’t tell you most of the things I had. I must have had at least 50 or 60 books that I never read, accumulated over the years. I couldn’t tell you what they were. I have no idea.
Yes, I kept a few things that were really important to me. But most of us carry around a lot of clutter that once had meaning or importance, yet because time has moved on — and we have moved on and evolved — it may no longer matter as much as it once did.
So we can offload those things and pass them on to someone else who may actually value them. And if we get something back from that — whether it’s money, time, or space — we can reinvest it elsewhere.
So yes, some elements were really easy. Things I didn’t even know I still had. But the items connected to my identity were harder. I think that’s just part of the journey.
Jeroen: Because would you also recommend — if someone starts this journey after listening to this podcast, or after reading your book or other work — getting rid of more personal things as well, simply to free up space?
Or is it more about the examples you just gave, like unread books, CDs, et cetera? Would you also say that more personal belongings weigh on you in a certain way, or is that taking it too far?
Would you keep things like photo albums?
Chris: Yeah. I mean, even if you look at your phone, we probably all have tens of thousands of photos — duplicates of duplicates.
From my perspective, letting go of things in my own physical space was easier because they were mine. I didn’t need anyone else’s approval. I didn’t have to discuss it with somebody else. It was simply my decision.
If we translate that into our careers, saying no to a meeting, for example, usually involves another person or a whole group of people. That creates another layer that makes it feel more difficult.
So yes, letting go of things like kitchen cutlery — of which I probably used only 10% — was relatively easy. Even cookbooks, Jeroen, which I convinced myself would somehow make me a better chef if I owned them, despite never actually reading them. And I still made terrible soup.
Because those things didn’t really matter, the barrier to letting them go was much lower.
But once I got used to letting things go, and once I realized what I could gain from doing so, it became much easier to apply the same thinking at work.
Jeroen: One last question about the past, although I think it’s very relevant for the rest of this conversation as well, is the big “why” question.
Why do we collect so much?
Is it because we are genetically wired to collect? Are we still wired from hundreds of thousands of years ago to gather and store things because you never know what kind of harsh winter is coming? Or is it something else?
Chris: Yeah, there are definitely elements of that. But as we’ve moved further into an information and technology age, consuming has become incredibly easy.
Buying things from a retail perspective is just one click away, and it can arrive within hours.
What tends to happen is that we see empty space or openness and instinctively think there’s an opportunity to fill it. We look at a corner of a room with nothing in it and mentally ask ourselves: what can I put there?
So it actually takes quite a lot of mental effort to look at a space or an empty cupboard and consciously decide not to fill it.
There’s some interesting research by Leidy Klotz, a professor of engineering in the United States, who studied what he calls our “bias towards addition.”
His research suggests that when we’re pressured to solve problems or improve things, we instinctively lean towards adding rather than subtracting.
So let’s say, Jeroen, you came to my house for dinner. If I asked how I could improve the meal, you’d probably say something like: add more salt, add more flavour, maybe even add more effort.
We naturally think in terms of adding.
But taking things away — subtracting — has value too. We just don’t consider it nearly as often.
That’s why many homes contain too much stuff. That’s why we have digital clutter on our phones and overloaded calendars. And that’s why we often struggle with energy, space, and time: because we constantly feel the need to fill everything.
Jeroen: Less is more. There you go. That absolutely must be your favourite phrase, right?
Chris: Oh yes, a hundred percent.
Jeroen: Do we segue now into more than just clutter at home — into clutter at work? And the same “why” question applies here as well, I guess. Because when it comes to physical possessions, there’s this history and tendency towards collecting.
I assume it’s similar in work. But maybe, to phrase it differently: does it also have to do with insecurity? I think most people are insecure deep down — whether clearly or less obviously — there’s always some level of insecurity.
And doesn’t it simply feel good when people want to meet with you? Is that why we keep saying yes? It feels important to have many meetings, to have many people wanting to talk to you, to do lots of sports, to maintain all these relationships everywhere, et cetera, et cetera.
Does that also relate to the “why” question?
Chris: Yeah, honestly, Jeroen, there are so many layers of psychology that we bring into the workplace, many of which go back thousands — even millions — of years.
Back when we were essentially cave people, if you were disagreeable to the group, you probably died, right? You lost access to food, safety, shelter, warmth — and perhaps got eaten by a sabre-toothed tiger roaming around outside.
That instinct has carried through our DNA ever since.
So our brains constantly try to protect us, but they can’t distinguish between the threat of a late deadline and the threat of being eaten by a sabre-toothed tiger. The body still produces the same stress response.
That’s why saying yes to something — even when deep down you know it doesn’t need to be done or you simply don’t have the time — is incredibly difficult for us. Partly because of biology and how we evolved, but also because of how we’ve been raised and socially conditioned.
We don’t like disappointing people.
We genuinely like helping others. We’re highly social creatures. So if someone says, “Can I call you in five minutes?”, even when you’re working on something really important that needs to be finished within the hour, there’s a strong temptation to stop what you’re doing and help that person instead.
And not only is that ingrained in us — it also feels really good.
There’s this chemical cocktail in the brain: oxytocin, serotonin, dopamine. Those chemicals get triggered when you help or advise someone. So when somebody asks, “Do you have 20 minutes? Can I borrow some of your time?”, your brain immediately thinks: here’s another rewarding moment.
So we end up in this cycle where we potentially help too much, run out of time ourselves, and then complain we never have enough time.
Ultimately, we think we’re serving others, but often we’re also serving our own need to feel good about helping others.
And if you look at it from a long-term perspective, constantly helping the same people can actually make them helpless. Their first instinct becomes: “I know where the answer is — I’ll just go to you.”
So one way to move around that, while still being respectful and helpful, is simply to ask a few questions instead of immediately solving the problem.
Questions like: “What have you already tried?” or “Who else have you spoken to?”
Because if you’re always the first person they go to, that pattern will probably continue.
Those questions create a small buffer and gently challenge the other person to figure things out for themselves. And often they come up with solutions you wouldn’t even have thought of.
They might return two weeks later and say: “Don’t worry, I figured it out. I tried this, this, and this.”
And you think: wow, I hadn’t even considered that approach. Maybe you should share that with everyone else.
So yes, the temptation to jump in and help is huge. But in the long run, saying no in a respectful and supportive way can actually help people become better.
Jeroen: Yeah. And I guess that’s not the same as saying you should never help anyone, right?
Chris: Exactly. It’s just helping in a slightly different way.
Ultimately, it’s about helping people become more autonomous and empowered. They know they can still come to you if they really need to, but you’re also giving them the agency to figure things out for themselves.
Jeroen: Before we go deeper into what you call “the art of saying no,” because I definitely want to learn more about that, I first wanted to ask something else.
The “problem,” if I may call it that, of decluttering still feels a little bit like a nice-to-have issue, right? Although for some people it may already be a major problem.
But when it comes to the workplace, you describe in your book that so many people are burned out. And you mention an astonishingly high number of people who actually die from simply working too much.
So this is a huge problem. Could you elaborate on that a little?
Chris: Yeah. It’s massive. It has almost become a global issue.
The number you’re referring to comes from the World Health Organization. In 2021, they conducted their first major study into overwork.
The fact that the WHO is spending time, money, and research effort on this topic already says a lot.
Their estimate was that around 745,000 people per year die from stroke or heart disease linked to overworking.
Even in Japan, dating back to the early seventies, there’s a term for it: karoshi, which literally means “death by overwork.”
So the issue started being recognized there and has since become a global phenomenon.
While writing the book, I had to read many stories about people who died at very young ages despite having few or no prior health complications — simply because they were working ridiculous hours under intense pressure and stress.
And even after the book was published, I kept seeing new stories every month: highly intelligent, highly educated people in major companies dying far too young. And those are just the cases we hear about.
So yes, this book isn’t just about productivity or time management. There are humorous moments in it, absolutely, but there’s also a serious purpose behind it.
I receive messages from friends who work in financial services and similar industries saying things like: “I hate it. I have no time. I’m miserable. I’m crying at my desk.”
And they don’t see a way out because they feel trapped in a system that constantly pushes them to overwork.
They’re in back-to-back meetings every day. They don’t even have time to eat properly.
So this book is for them just as much as it is for organizations and teams that want to simplify work and focus on doing better, more meaningful things.
Hopefully — fingers crossed — it helps somebody protect their health.
Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance with Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: In your view and experience, are people generally aware that they’re working too much and that their health is suffering because of it?
The people you just described are clearly struggling — almost crying at their desks. But is there also a group — and maybe this is just my assumption — that genuinely doesn’t realize that what they’re doing isn’t sustainable in the long term?
Chris: Yeah, absolutely.
There’s definitely a group of people — and I was one of them when I was younger — who believe that constantly working is a sign of success.
If I’m busy all the time, then clearly I must be important. Clearly I’m in demand.
And sometimes that’s tied to insecurity as well: “What if I’m not as important as I think I am?” or “What if I don’t actually have anything meaningful to fill my time with?”
There’s a phrase in corporate culture about burnout becoming a badge of honour.
People work constantly, attend every meeting, stay late, arrive early, skip breaks — and to some extent that is still viewed as successful behaviour.
I’ve coached people who were promoted not because they were better, but simply because they were more visible. They were always there. They worked longer hours.
That doesn’t necessarily mean they produced better work than the person who achieved the same in fewer hours. They were just seen more often.
But I do think people are slowly starting to see through it.
Especially the younger generation — Gen Z in particular. They are far less willing to trade their health for a paycheck.
Jeroen: Did you notice a big difference there? Is there really a significant shift with the next generation, or will it eventually become the same cycle all over again?
Chris: Yeah, I think there’s quite a lot of research and data around Gen Z having a healthier relationship with boundaries. They’ll generally work their contracted hours, but they’re much more resistant to the traditional idea that success only comes through excessive work and sacrifice — for example, working endless hours to get promoted. They’d rather not trade their life for money, or vice versa.
I had a recent example where a client came to me. His boss had said: “Can you give the young genius some feedback, please?” And I said, “Sure. What’s the issue?” The response was: “He’s lacking a bit of professionalism.”
So I asked if we could dig into that a little more. Eventually I found out that the “lack of professionalism” came down to two things: he left work on time and he didn’t wear a tie. That was it.
So not only was this person literally called “the young genius,” but that part was completely overlooked. Instead, because he left on time and didn’t wear a tie, he was perceived as lazy and in need of feedback.
What actually happened in the end was that the leader I was coaching gave feedback upward to his own boss. He said: “I think we need to redefine what success looks like here. Because you clearly think this guy is excellent. There’s nothing wrong with him showing up in a shirt without a tie.”
Jeroen: So what’s your take on the 10,000-hour rule? The idea that if you want to become really good at something, you need to put in 10,000 hours — and preferably not spread out over too long a period either.
And let me add something to that. As you know, I’ve interviewed more than 200 CEOs, successful entrepreneurs, ministers, and professors. One thing that consistently stands out to me is that almost all of them — especially early in their careers — worked incredibly hard. They put in huge numbers of hours to become really good at whatever they were doing.
Most of them belong to an older generation, generally speaking, although some are younger. But still, what stood out is that they worked extremely hard in those early years.
So what’s your view on that?
Chris: Yeah, but I’d bet they were working really hard on the important things.
Jeroen: I guess that’s the key distinction, right? That they were focused on the things that actually mattered.
Chris: Exactly. You can work hard on anything. You can work hard on the right things or on the wrong things.
My perspective has never been about avoiding hard work. It’s about making sure you’re working hard on the right things. I’ll give you an example, Jeroen. I’m currently working with several entrepreneurs who want to start their own businesses. One of the first things many of them think is: “I need to spend loads of time building the perfect website.”
But in reality, that’s often a way of avoiding the harder things — like talking to people, building relationships, validating ideas, refining the product, or whatever the truly important task is. Instead, they choose the path of least resistance because the other things feel scary.
So they spend hours refining their website and tweaking small details around it. Technically, they’re still working hard, but they’re working hard on the wrong thing.
That’s the important distinction. Ultimately, you choose your version of hard: either working hard on what truly matters, or working hard on what simply feels easier.
Jeroen: Is it difficult to figure out what’s actually important and what isn’t? I think that’s probably the hardest part — at least for me.
Deciding whether something is genuinely important or whether you’re doing it simply because it’s enjoyable, or because you want to please someone, or because it makes you feel busy, or for all the other reasons we discussed earlier.
Figuring out what truly deserves your attention is incredibly difficult. Some things are obviously important, and some things are obviously not. But then there’s this huge middle ground — maybe 70 or 90 percent of all tasks — where it’s much harder to judge. At least, I find that really difficult.
Chris: Yeah, exactly. And that’s the real skill today. It’s almost like choosing a film on Netflix. There are endless options. Most of them are probably fine — you just have to pick one.
Jeroen: I thought you were going to say they’re all rubbish and you still have to pick the right one.
Chris: Well, that’s also possible.
But work is similar. The number of priorities and objectives people deal with today can be overwhelming. Yesterday, one thing was the priority. Then the world changes, and suddenly something else becomes the priority.
And that happens constantly now. Every month — sometimes even every week — something changes in your market, your company, your department, or your role that forces you to reevaluate what’s important.
And that’s the real challenge. Something may have been crystal clear yesterday, and today it suddenly isn’t anymore.
Jeroen: Before we continue going through the book, there’s one other thing I wanted to ask.
You’ve coached many people and spoken to many professionals about this topic. The people who are closest to what you would consider “ideal” — the ones who have successfully decluttered their work lives, focus on the right things, protect their time, and so on — are they generally perceived as friendly people?
Or are they seen more as extremely focused colleagues who perhaps aren’t always considered approachable or nice?
Is there any relationship between being effective in this way and how people perceive you socially?
Chris: Yeah, what a great question. I guess the people who are really good at this are both highly focused and highly present. They’re disciplined when they need to be disciplined, and then genuinely friendly and energized when they need to be as well. If you look at how they structure a typical day, they tend to begin with the most difficult or most impactful thing first. Most people log on and immediately check email, which basically means: “I’m going to start my day according to other people’s priorities.” Instead of asking themselves, “What’s the most important thing I need to do today for myself or my work?”
So some people might start with exercise because they know it energizes them for the rest of the day. Others might begin with a presentation, a board paper, or some important strategic work. They understand how their body and mind operate. They know when they perform best and they protect that time carefully.
Then they also implement what I call strategic breaks. When they notice mental fatigue kicking in or feel themselves slowing down, they stop. Maybe for 10 or 15 minutes. They walk away from the screen and go somewhere that re-energizes them. That might be outside, with other people, or simply sitting quietly and doing nothing for a moment.
If you compare this with athletes, it becomes very obvious. Athletes train, stop, analyze, stretch, recover, and then train again. But in the corporate world, we often just work continuously until the point where our brains are completely fried and we can barely think straight anymore. That’s when we finally stop.
Ironically, we tend to perceive elite athletes as people who are constantly working incredibly hard, while in reality they spend a huge amount of time recovering because recovery is part of performance.
That’s the mindset shift. If you want to become a kind of corporate athlete, then you need to work like one and rest like one. Rest and recovery are not separate from performance — they are part of performance.
That’s why these people often also have much healthier personal lives. They still have energy left for their families, children, hobbies, and social lives. They don’t finish work exhausted and immediately collapse with a bottle of wine. They still have energy left to actually live.
Jeroen: Yeah, that makes complete sense to me. But still, going back to my original question, especially when you’re leading people — when you’re a manager and people depend on you — there are really two ways to look at this.
From my own experience, I could decide not to open my email, LinkedIn, or phone in the morning and instead focus first on the thing I think is most important. Let’s say I do that. Afterwards, I feel great because after an hour and a half, the key task is done and out of my system. Especially if I do it at five or six in the morning, before the world has properly started, it gives me energy for the entire day.
But then there’s also the other side: people saying, “Because you didn’t reply, I couldn’t continue my work,” or “It would have helped if you had approved this contract or signed off on that document.”
So that’s where the tension comes in for me. Ultimately, it’s great to focus on your own priorities, but you’re also there to work with others.
Chris: Yeah, and you’re absolutely right. A lot of the people I coach are in exactly those kinds of leadership positions.
I think the key is understanding what is actually most important in that moment. Sometimes signing something off really is the most important thing. And honestly, if something is truly urgent, people will usually call you.
There’s also an interesting leadership element here around empowerment. Sometimes leaders unintentionally become bottlenecks because people get used to always coming to them for approval.
I worked with one leader who felt trapped because everybody constantly came to him with questions and approvals. So he ran an experiment. For two weeks, he decided not to sign anything off.
Initially, people panicked. During the first week, everyone overthought their work because they no longer had the comfort of someone else validating every decision.
But by week two, something interesting happened: people became much faster. They realized they were trusted, capable, qualified professionals. The bottleneck disappeared.
Eventually the leader said: “You don’t need me to approve everything anymore. Maybe only the highest-priority decisions, but the rest — I trust you.”
And suddenly the whole team moved faster.
Jeroen: Yeah, so again, it comes back to trust and clarity. Clarity about expectations.
So moving to your book — first of all, I loved the fact that every few chapters there’s a page saying: “Take a break.” That’s brilliant.
And then the title itself: Relentless. But visually it’s also split into “relent” and “less,” which is a clever play on words. Tell me more about that. Why Relentless?
Chris: About four years ago, I was working with several organizations and clients, and I kept asking people a very simple question: “How’s it going?”
Sometimes they didn’t even answer with words anymore. They’d just make a kind of exhausted noise. But over and over again people would say: “Chris, it’s just relentless.”
After hearing that three or four times in a single day, I thought: that’s the word.
And the nice thing was that it already contained the word “less,” so it fit perfectly with the broader theme of my work.
I actually had the title before I had the content.
When we designed the cover with the publisher, I said I wanted it to stay very clean and uncluttered. It couldn’t be visually chaotic because that would completely contradict the message of the book. Splitting the word was a way to subtly emphasize the idea that by doing less, we can focus on the right things and ultimately achieve more meaningful outcomes.
So really, the title just came directly from hearing people constantly describe their work lives as relentless.
Jeroen: Yeah. And have you ever met people — professionally or privately — who genuinely could not relate to at least some part of what you write about?
Because to me, these themes feel universal. I think almost everybody recognizes themselves in this somewhere.
Chris: Yeah, I think that’s actually one of the strengths of the book. There are around twenty chapters, and each one only takes about five minutes to read.
So the likelihood is that anyone working in a knowledge-based or white-collar environment will recognize at least a few of them and think: “Yeah, I’ve experienced that.” chris lovett
Each chapter contains small stories, case studies, or bits of research that show what happens if you reduce a certain kind of clutter in your work or life.
Even something like boredom. We’ve been taught that boredom is negative, that it means something is wrong or missing. So we constantly try to avoid it. But the science actually suggests the opposite. When the brain becomes bored for a while, it starts forming new connections. You see this with children all the time. A child says: “I’m bored.” And five minutes later they’ve invented an entire game using tinfoil, a wall, and a book.
That happens in work too. If you’re struggling with a problem or searching for an idea, sometimes the solution appears precisely when you stop forcing it and allow yourself space to get bored.
Jeroen: That’s very true. It’s often boredom — both for children and for adults — that creates the space for great ideas. But of course, creating those moments is difficult when you live a busy life.
So if you had to pick one thing that people immediately relate to most strongly, what would it be? Is it the idea of saying no, or something else?
Chris: Honestly, I’d probably start with the easiest possible thing: take a lunch break.
That’s probably the simplest change anyone can make immediately.
The statistics around lunch breaks are fascinating. Most people technically have a lunch hour in their contracts, but the average lunch break today is only around 28 minutes. In 2014 it was roughly 44 minutes. So we’re slowly eliminating breaks altogether.
At this pace, the lunch hour might eventually become something nostalgic we tell our grandchildren about — like going to Blockbuster or using a house phone.
But the science is very clear: the brain needs breaks. Whether that’s stepping away from the screen, going outside, or simply mentally switching off for a while, people perform better afterwards. So the simplest intervention is literally: give yourself a proper lunch break.
And don’t feel guilty about it. If something is truly urgent, people will call you. If it’s sitting quietly in your inbox, it probably isn’t as urgent as your brain wants you to believe.
Jeroen: Yeah, but even then there’s social pressure, right? If someone sees you sitting alone during lunch, they may think: “Why isn’t that person working?” Or: “Is something wrong with them?” And even if you don’t care what other people think, there’s still that internal feeling that maybe you should be working instead. So it actually requires quite a lot of discipline — and confidence — to really do it.
Chris: Yeah, but the interesting thing is that once one person starts doing it openly, other people begin copying it because they realize it’s safe. I recently saw this happen in a meeting. Towards the end, someone said: “Do you mind if I leave five minutes early? I’ve got another meeting and I’d like a few minutes to reset beforehand.” The following week, someone else did exactly the same thing. Culture changes very quickly once people realize they’re allowed to behave differently.
Jeroen: So the tone from the top really matters here. Especially if senior leaders or CEOs model the behaviour themselves.
Chris: Absolutely. There’s definitely a top-down element to it. For example, the CEO of Instagram recently pushed hard against excessive meetings. He limited recurring meetings and capped attendance numbers. But the problem is that even when leaders give permission, employees still need to give themselves permission too.
Because trust in leadership is often quite low. So when a leader says: “Take your lunch break,” employees sometimes hear: “I want you to take your lunch break, but I’m personally going to keep working.” And if leaders don’t model the behaviour themselves, people assume it isn’t truly safe.
Jeroen: Exactly. And that’s what I mean by tone from the top: not just saying it, but actually demonstrating it yourself. For example, I simply don’t do meetings on Wednesdays. Never. In the afternoon I’m with the kids, and in the morning I focus on work that requires deep concentration rather than meetings. In the beginning it felt strange, almost uncomfortable. But after doing it consistently a few times, it became normal. Everybody now knows that Wednesdays are protected.
And hopefully other people start doing similar things themselves. So before we wrap up: why should people read your book?
Chris: Well, the book is really written for people who are too busy to read books. It’s based on years of coaching C-suite leaders across the world, and the common theme is always the same: people are overwhelmed, time-poor, and under huge pressure. So even if you only take one idea from the book, it’s probably worth the time investment.
Every chapter takes about five minutes to read. That’s intentional. Five minutes that could potentially change how you work forever. And although the topic is serious, it’s written in a very human and accessible way. There’s no corporate jargon. It’s practical, funny in places, and grounded in real experiences. It’s for leaders, organizations, teams, and individual contributors — basically anyone who would like a little more time and energy back in their lives.
Jeroen: I genuinely loved reading it.
What I liked most is that you constantly recognize yourself in it. Sometimes you think: “Okay, I’m actually doing this quite well.” And then on the next page you think: “Oh no, he’s absolutely right — I’m terrible at this.” It also gives comfort because you realize you’re not the only one struggling with these things. Secondly, it’s simply an easy and enjoyable read. Practical, well-written, funny at times, and full of ideas you can implement immediately.
But ultimately, the deeper reason I enjoyed it is almost philosophical. If you get this right, life opens up again. You create space for all the things that truly matter. So yes, it’s practical, but it’s also serious in the sense that it can genuinely change your life.
Chris: Thank you, Jeroen. That’s incredibly kind. I’d probably leave listeners with one final thought. The world is constantly changing. AI, restructures, uncertainty — all these things make people anxious. And when people become anxious, they often respond by simply working harder because they think visibility equals safety. “If I’m visibly busy all the time, surely they’ll keep me.”
But I think we need to move away from visibility as a measure of success and focus instead on impact and outcomes. Nobody has ever interviewed me for a role and said: “Chris, we’d really like you to spend 90% of your time in meetings and answering Teams messages.” Yet that’s what many people end up doing. So instead, focus on the key objectives you actually need to deliver. Deliver them well. Deliver them clearly. Deliver them faster than everyone else if possible. And forget the rest. Because ultimately, nobody is going to remember whether you attended every single meeting or replied to every message within thirty seconds.
Jeroen: Wonderful. Thank you so much. You’re such a clear communicator — both in your book and in this conversation. So thank you, Chris Lovett, author of Relentless: The Power of Doing Less in a Workplace that Demands More. I genuinely hope many more people read it and, more importantly, actually implement some of the ideas because I’m sure that’s what matters most to you. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with Leaders in Finance.
Chris: Pleasure, Jeroen. Thank you.
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