Voice-over: This is Leaders in Finance, a podcast where we find out more about the people behind a successful career. We speak with the leaders of today and tomorrow to discuss their motivations, their organizations, and their personal lives. Why? Because the financial sector could use a little more honest conversation.
We’d like to thank our partners for their ongoing support. They are EY, Mogelijk Real Estate Finance, Dun & Bradstreet, and Lepaya.
Your host is Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: Welcome, listeners, to a new episode of the Leaders in Finance podcast. I’m very happy you tuned in today. With me are two really exciting guests.
First of all, Ingo Uytdehaage, co-CEO at Adyen, and next to him Jessica Peters-Hondelink, Directeur-bestuurder and CEO of Amsterdam Economic Board. Thanks for taking the time to talk to me and to Leaders in Finance. Welcome.
Ingo: Thanks.
Jessica: Thank you very much.
Jeroen: And actually, thanks for having me, Ingo, here at Adyen. We’re recording this podcast at your office. We’re going to talk about a lot of things today. I’d love to talk about both of you, what you do, as well as the overlapping interests you share when it comes to the Netherlands, Amsterdam, the business climate, and the ease of doing business.
But first of all, I’d love to get a short introduction from each of you. Then we’ll move on to your organizations, and after that to the broader topics you’re both interested in. So first of all, Ingo, since we’re here at your office, could you briefly introduce yourself?
Ingo: Absolutely. My name is Ingo, co-CEO at Adyen. I’ve been with Adyen for the last 15 years, currently focusing on product and operations as co-CEO, as well as the strategy projects we’re working on.
Adyen has the ambition to become the most customer-focused financial technology company in the world, powering the commerce of our customers. That’s what we’re working on every day. It’s really cool to see the company grow from just a handful of people when I started to about 5,000 people globally today, working for great customers, including Google, but also companies here in the Netherlands, like de Bijenkorf, so a very broad customer base.
What drives our customers is bringing innovation to the market in financial technology, and that’s exactly what we enable for them.
Jeroen: Right. I think it’s pretty unlikely that people haven’t heard of Adyen nowadays, but when you started, that was very different, right?
Ingo: Yeah, absolutely. A lot of people said, “What kind of company are you going to work for? Only 25 people?”
So it took us years to explain what we were doing. I think that’s still sometimes a challenge in markets where we’re relatively new. But if you look at our reputation in Europe, and now also in North America, that has completely changed. Companies looking for a partner to help them with their financial technology know us, and that’s one of the reasons why we’re continuing to grow as fast as we are.
Jeroen: Yeah. Maybe one follow-up question. Can you give me a couple of numbers about Adyen? You mentioned 5,000 people. Perhaps the number of countries, your market cap, or any other financials you’re willing to share?
Ingo: Yeah. What I’m most proud of is that we are a team of 5,000 people across 28 offices around the world. We’re truly a global company, with more than 100 nationalities represented.
We’re doing over €2 billion in annual revenue right now. For me, that’s actually less relevant. The most important thing is that our customers are happy with us. We closely track our Net Promoter Score, so how our customers perceive us, and that’s continuing to improve over time. That’s absolutely what matters most to us.
Jeroen: Thanks. Jessica, over to you. Maybe you can also give us a short introduction.
Jessica: Yes, definitely. I’m Jessica, the Directeur-bestuurder and CEO of Amsterdam Economic Board.
The Board is an independent foundation established by governments, companies, knowledge institutions, and societal organizations. Our mission is to put the most important issues for a future-proof economy—especially in the Amsterdam Metropolitan Area—on the agenda, and to stimulate public-private cooperation between these parties. We have about 140 partners, and Adyen is one of them.
Jeroen: Unsurprisingly, given we’re here. So what is it you like most about your job?
Jessica: What I really like is that you’re working on something that’s bigger than yourself. You bring together organizations to tackle issues that they simply cannot solve on their own.
Jeroen: Right. Ultimately, who are you doing this for? Is it for the Netherlands, for businesses, for government?
Jessica: Well, we’re doing it not only for Amsterdam. By achieving our goals, we’re also contributing to the Netherlands and to Europe. We’re working towards a future-proof economy and greater digital autonomy—or, more broadly, strategic autonomy.
So yes, it’s about the region. That includes around 30 municipalities, stretching from the IJmond region to Almere, Lelystad, Purmerend, and Gooi en Vechtstreek. But it’s also about cooperation between different regions.
Jeroen: Right. Because the first thing I wondered when I heard about Amsterdam Economic Board a long time ago was: why isn’t this organized at the national level? I mean, apparently it’s much bigger than just Amsterdam, but it’s still not the entire country.
Jessica: Actually, in a way it is. Every region in the Netherlands has its own economic board. And what’s really important when it comes to cooperation is proximity. Working together on a regional basis helps because people know each other. That’s why every region has an economic board, but there’s also cooperation between the different boards at the national level.
Jeroen: Could you share a couple of things that work really well in your work? What are the things you do that ultimately lead to the outcomes you want to achieve?
Jessica: Yes. Especially now, in the Amsterdam region, we’re doing quite well when it comes to technology development and building ecosystems. Amsterdam has the talent, the capital, the startups, and the venture capital. What’s really important is bringing all those elements together at the right moment and in the right place.
For example, we’re currently building a tech corridor between Amsterdam and the Brainport region in Eindhoven. They are very strong in semiconductors and chip technology, while we’re quite strong in AI applications. So why not work together on the EuroStack and on the vertical integration part?
Jeroen: Okay, I’ll come back to that, because it’s really interesting. I recently reported on it.
But first, I’d like to know: how do you two know each other? How well do you work together? Do you see each other often, Ingo? How did you get to know each other?
Ingo: Yeah, so Adyen became a partner of Amsterdam Economic Board last year. The reason we joined is that we want to represent the tech ecosystem here in Amsterdam.
One of the things that comes with a company like ours is that we’ve developed a lot of talented people who have gone on to start very successful companies themselves. Encouraging that ecosystem is very important. That means working together with universities, local governments, and other partners, and showing that we’re not outsiders in society, but that we’re actually helping to build it. That’s why we joined the Board.
Jeroen: Have you looked at ASML as an example? Because you’re essentially doing something similar, right? They’re doing it in Eindhoven. There are all these spin-offs and new companies emerging from there, but they also have a lot to deal with when it comes to government.
Ingo: I think that once you reach a certain size, it’s part of your responsibility to make sure you’re well connected to your environment.
Of course, we’re a commercial organization. We want to build great technology for our customers. But at the same time, we have a responsibility for what’s happening here. Amsterdam is our birthplace. Still, about half of the company is based here in Amsterdam.
The people who work here don’t just live in Amsterdam—they live across the wider region. So this broader ecosystem is very important to us. It includes simple things like how other cities are connected to Amsterdam and how easily people can travel here. Those kinds of things are essential for a well-functioning ecosystem.
Overall, I think we’re doing quite well, but there’s always room for improvement. That’s one of the reasons we joined the Board: to make an active contribution and provide the perspective of the tech sector on what needs to happen in this region.
Jessica: And it’s not just words. It’s really happening in practice. The partners we work with—especially Adyen—are not only here to build a successful company, but also to give something back.
What we really appreciate is that Ingo and Adyen openly share their knowledge, for example about how they build systems that don’t depend on individual people. Sharing that knowledge gives something back to the ecosystem they originally grew out of.
Jeroen: It’s great that you’re giving back. But before that, I was wondering: have you benefited a lot from being based here, or could you have been just as successful in any other city in Europe—or even elsewhere in the world?
Ingo: I think it’s very beneficial to start a company in the Netherlands. The first thing you realize is that if you want to build something for the long term, you can’t focus only on the Dutch market because it’s simply too small.
From day one, we knew we had to build a global company. Amsterdam is a great place to do that because it’s very good at attracting talent. People like living here, or in the cities around Amsterdam. We also have excellent universities nearby. We’ve worked closely with Delft University of Technology, for example, to attract great engineering talent.
That has really helped us reach the position we’re in today. If people ask me whether I’d start again in Amsterdam, the answer is absolutely yes. We need to continue attracting and developing the right people. And it’s also great that people who leave Adyen to start their own companies often stay in Amsterdam, which strengthens the ecosystem even further.
Jeroen: The first two things you mentioned were that it’s simply a great place to live and that there’s access to talent. Were there any other factors that were really important in building your business here?
Ingo: Of course, access to funding is also important. That has never been a problem for us in Amsterdam. There are stories that it’s difficult to raise funding here, but that hasn’t been our experience. If you have a strong business plan, you can connect with the best venture capital firms in the world.
I also think the overall environment in Amsterdam—and the regulatory environment in particular—has helped us a lot. One major advantage was the European passporting regime. As a financial institution, you can passport your licence to other European countries. That gave us a huge boost in the early years.
So Amsterdam, the Netherlands, and Europe more broadly have all been very beneficial to us.
Jeroen: I’ll definitely come back to the challenges, because I’m sure there are some. But Jessica, before we do, Ingo mentioned quite a few strengths: it’s a great place to live, there are excellent universities, funding was never really an issue—although I imagine much of that funding came from outside Europe—and then there’s the regulatory environment with passporting.
Do those all sound familiar to you, or are there other reasons why this is such a good place to do business?
Jessica: Yes, absolutely. I completely agree. It’s also about the international connections. We have Schiphol Airport, of course, we have the Port of Amsterdam, and we have excellent international connectivity.
And, as Ingo mentioned, international talent really enjoys living here. We have a vibrant cultural scene, and it’s a wonderful region to live in—not only in the city itself, but also in the surrounding areas.
Jeroen: So that’s quite a list already. Are we missing anything? Is there anything else that makes this such a good place to do business?
Jessica: I think we’ve covered most of it.
Ingo: Absolutely. And the point you made about Schiphol is also very important. We have 28 offices around the world, and we can fly directly to most of them. If you think about the economic impact of that, it’s enormous. I think people sometimes underestimate just how important that is.
Jeroen: Right, that makes sense.
I’d like to follow up on a couple of the points you mentioned. People often say it’s a great place to live, but they also say it’s incredibly expensive and very difficult to find housing. Does that sound familiar? Or is it still simply a great place for everyone to live?
Jessica: No, housing is definitely a challenge, especially within the A10 Ring Road. If you compare it with London, though, people there are used to commuting for half an hour, an hour, or even two hours. If we look at the issue from a broader regional perspective, it becomes a bit less problematic.
Jeroen: And what’s your experience with your own employees? You’re based in a beautiful location in the city centre. Is it easy—or relatively easy—for people to find housing nearby?
Ingo: I certainly wouldn’t say it’s easy to find housing in Amsterdam. It definitely isn’t.
That’s also one of the reasons we’re located where we are. We’re here on Rokin, and our other office is at Oosterdokseiland. Both are very close to Amsterdam Central Station, and that’s intentional.
We’ve always taken a broader regional perspective. I don’t know the exact numbers anymore, but I think roughly half of our employees don’t actually live in Amsterdam. They live in places like Utrecht, Almere, Haarlem, or The Hague. There are many places people commute from, and because public transport works well, they can travel to Central Station and then walk or take the metro to the office.
Jeroen: Your second point was about access to talent and relationships with universities. Is it easy for you to attract talent here? I assume you have a global talent pool.
Are most of your people still based here, or are they increasingly located elsewhere?
Ingo: Most of our people are still here in Amsterdam. It’s our biggest office globally. At the same time, we’re expanding mainly outside Amsterdam—not because we don’t like Amsterdam, but because most of our business is outside the city. I want people to be close to where business is being done, and that’s why we’re hiring more outside Amsterdam.
That said, Amsterdam remains a great place to find talent, both on the commercial side and the engineering side. Of course, it’s highly competitive. There are many attractive companies to work for. But that’s actually the kind of ecosystem you want. International talent wouldn’t move to a city if there were only one interesting employer. Having a strong base of tech companies in Amsterdam helps attract the right people. They may move between companies over time, but that’s perfectly fine.
Jeroen: But I imagine that once you’re as large as you are today, attracting talent becomes much easier than when you were a small startup.
Ingo: Absolutely. The stronger your brand becomes, the easier it is to attract talent. At the same time, the selection process becomes much more challenging. We receive significantly more applications now than we did when we were a smaller company, so choosing the right people has become more difficult.
Jeroen: Jessica, do you agree? Is Amsterdam still attractive for talent, or do you see challenges?
Jessica: It’s definitely an attractive place for talent. Housing remains a point of attention, but we should also look beyond just the city of Amsterdam. If you look at the tech ecosystem, the focus may be here, but we also have Almere with a high-tech campus, and ASM International is investing millions there. We have a concentration of data centres in Haarlemmermeer, and the media and creative industries in Hilversum. So we need to take a broader regional perspective.
Ingo: Right. One important point if we want to keep attracting talent is making sure it’s also financially attractive to work here. One of the challenges we currently face, for example, is the taxation of employee stock options.
For me, this isn’t about avoiding taxes. Everyone who lives in Amsterdam or the Netherlands should pay taxes. What we’re advocating is that taxes should be paid when profits are actually realised—when they’re liquid—not on unrealised gains. That’s important because realised profits can then be reinvested, which is how you build a healthy ecosystem. That’s also when taxation makes sense.
As a country, we need to get this right, because offering attractive stock option plans is an important way to attract and retain talent.
Jeroen: So, to put it simply: taxation, good.
Ingo: Yeah.
Jeroen: Timing, not so good.
Ingo: Exactly. And I also think it’s important that, as the tech industry, we don’t simply say the Dutch tax climate doesn’t work, because that’s not true. Taxes help fund education and all the public services we benefit from.
The issue is really about the timing of taxation. If we make that relatively small adjustment—and I know there are many discussions about it right now—it will make a real difference for the industry’s future.
Jeroen: There has been a very clear lobby from the tech sector on this issue. Do you think it’s going to succeed? I’m looking at both of you—I don’t know who has the better view.
Ingo: I’m not a politician, but I hope policymakers understand why this is so important. As you summarised, it’s really about timing. I don’t see why allowing taxation upon realisation would be problematic, provided people can’t create artificial structures to avoid tax.
I’m certainly not advocating loopholes or complicated constructions. It should remain straightforward. People should simply pay taxes when they actually realise the value.
Jeroen: Potentially, that could even generate more tax revenue for the government.
Ingo: Absolutely. Because you create an ecosystem. If people can reinvest those realised profits, that’s exactly what happens.
Jessica: And I think they are listening. There have been so many concerns expressed about the current system. There is now also a new proposal that would exempt startups from this rule, although it hasn’t been implemented yet. So I’m hopeful.
Ingo: But it’s only for startups, and that’s exactly the problem. We also need larger companies to be able to attract talent, because the people who gain experience in bigger organisations today are the ones who will found the startups of tomorrow.
Jeroen: Since we’re already talking about taxes, let’s continue with that. Another issue is the tax arrangement for employees coming from abroad—the rule that gives certain tax advantages to international employees.
You mean the 30% ruling, right? Is that also an important issue for you?
Ingo: Yes, especially when it becomes unpredictable. Predictability is extremely important. If you want to attract international talent, you need to be able to explain clearly how the Dutch system works and why the 30% ruling exists.
What we’ve seen in the past is that the rules changed while people were already relying on them. That’s very unpredictable for employees, and I don’t think that’s helpful.
Jeroen: But I imagine that, as co-CEO of Adyen, you have fairly direct access to politicians and policymakers in The Hague. Are you personally involved in these discussions?
Ingo: Absolutely. But again, my main priorities are predictability and ensuring that taxes are paid when gains are realised.
Beyond that, I don’t want to spend too much time talking about taxes because that isn’t the responsibility of a single company. What matters much more to us is the impact technology companies can have on society.
That’s also one of the reasons we started the Deep Tech Forum. We want to bring speakers to Amsterdam who talk about the impact of technology, because that’s the conversation we should be having.
The world is changing incredibly quickly. Amsterdam needs to remain a frontrunner. If we don’t, in five or ten years we risk becoming irrelevant as a region. That’s exactly what we need to avoid. We can do that by working together, forming alliances, and building strong partnerships. That’s one of the reasons I’m so pleased that Amsterdam Economic Board exists.
Jessica: I completely agree—especially with what you said before. We really need to keep the flywheel turning.
We were very successful in the past, and we still are, but past success is no guarantee of future success. We need successful companies to reinvest in the next generation of companies.
If I look at Adyen, I believe around 28 startups have emerged as spin-outs.
Jeroen: Sort of, yes. Hopefully they’re not all competing with Adyen.
Jessica: Well, why not?
Jeroen: I don’t know.
Jessica: I don’t think that’s necessarily a problem. They can focus on different things.
Last week, Dealroom.co published its latest Global Tech Ecosystem Index. It showed that Amsterdam is now ranked seventh globally and remains the leading ecosystem in the European Union. That’s a slight decline of fewer than three places compared to before.
Even more importantly, we’re ranked tenth globally as a “density leader”. That says a great deal about how well the ecosystem functions.
As Ingo mentioned, Amsterdam has the universities, the startups, the venture capital, established companies, and several unicorns. What we now need to ensure is that all these actors work together towards the same goal, so that this region continues to be a world-class technology ecosystem.
Voice-over: This is the Leaders in Finance podcast with Jeroen Broekema.
Jeroen: You’re giving me the impression that we’ve perhaps already reached our peak, and that there’s at least a risk of declining. So what exactly are the biggest obstacles? It’s probably not just taxes. Housing may be part of it. There are many factors.
What are the key blockers preventing Amsterdam and the Netherlands from moving forward again?
Jessica: I think it starts with having a shared ambition.
Sometimes I see companies pointing at the government to solve problems, while the government points back at companies and tells them to do more. That’s why I appreciate that we’re not only talking about taxes or government policies.
We really need to work together on larger ambitions.
If you look at the United States, they’re investing around $1 trillion in AI infrastructure. What are we doing? What are our major ambitions?
I think France is doing a better job. The French government is actively involved, has clear ambitions, and invests heavily in its technology ecosystem. We need that same kind of collaboration here, with companies, governments, and knowledge institutions working together.
Jeroen: Right. So is it mainly about having a shared ambition, or a big ambition—or both?
And if I’m listening to you correctly, that mainly comes down to cooperation between businesses and the public sector.
Jessica: Both.
Ingo: Definitely, yes.
Jeroen: You agree, Ingo?
Ingo: Yes. And on top of that, one of the things I really like about Amsterdam Economic Board is that we’ve defined three strategic themes.
The stream we’re involved in focuses on technology and AI. It’s about defining clear ambitions for the future so that, as a region, we work together towards common goals. It also means collaborating with the Brainport region on what we can achieve together. Having those shared ambitions is crucial.
Jessica: Yes. Amsterdam has been doing many different things, but people sometimes ask, “What exactly is Amsterdam’s contribution?”
As Ingo mentioned, one of our three themes is tech and AI. We want to create a strong, shared ambition in that area. We also focus on life sciences, health, and biotech, because around a quarter of all life sciences and health activities in the Netherlands take place in the Amsterdam region. We have around 190 biotech companies employing about 10,000 people.
The third theme is circular industry. If we can combine those three areas—using AI and technology in life sciences, healthcare, physical systems, and industry—we can once again become a leading region.
Jeroen: I can imagine that all these stakeholders come together and define a common ambition, but then the real work starts. What are the key ingredients that make it actually happen?
Jessica: Proximity is very important. We bring together parties that wouldn’t normally work together and form coalitions around a shared objective.
Together, we make concrete agreements about how everyone contributes—in terms of time, money, and energy. Everyone contributes in their own way. That’s powerful because we don’t have to tell them what to do. They share a common goal and genuinely work towards it. It’s great to see.
Ingo: It’s also about visibility. The tech ecosystem in Amsterdam is much larger than many people realise. Simply getting those numbers out there is incredibly important.
We also need to stop repeating the narrative that Amsterdam is becoming unattractive and that everyone is leaving. If you actually look at what’s happening, very few companies are leaving. The ecosystem is highly successful.
Let’s be proud of what we’ve built and make visible what we’re achieving together. That’s the only way to keep succeeding. By bringing all these initiatives together, we can create much more visibility. And visibility helps people find each other, making it easier to realise our ambitions.
Jeroen: Isn’t that a typical Dutch trait—to be a bit negative and downplay our successes? Maybe we should simply rally around the flag and say Amsterdam is one of the fintech capitals of the world. Let’s attract everyone.
Jessica: We really should be more proud.
And it’s not just about governments and companies. We also have our knowledge institutions. We have a huge ecosystem with tens of thousands of technology students, but many people don’t realise that. In cities like Delft, Twente, and Eindhoven, people naturally think of the technical universities there when it comes to technology transfer and engineering talent.
But we have a tremendous ecosystem here as well. We need to strengthen our technology profile together with our knowledge institutions and continue building around AI and technology.
Jeroen: That makes perfect sense to me. As Ingo said, we need to get the numbers out there.
You both mentioned the Brainport corridor earlier. Isn’t there something Amsterdam can learn from Eindhoven—and especially from ASML—about branding? Everyone now knows Brainport as a global technology hub.
When you tell me there are so many life sciences companies here, I honestly didn’t know that. Maybe that’s just me, but I suspect many others don’t know either.
So how do we get that message out? Should CEOs speak up more, like we’re doing now? Should politicians promote it more actively? I’m just throwing out a few ideas.
Jessica: Those are very good suggestions.
I think it’s important to have a very clear narrative about what we’re good at. That’s something Brainport has done extremely well. Of course, having a company like ASML helps enormously.
Some people also see that as a vulnerability, because they ask what happens if ASML ever leaves. The ecosystem there is organised differently from the one in Amsterdam.
But what they’ve done exceptionally well is create one clear story. Governments, companies, and knowledge institutions all tell the same story. That’s something we can certainly learn from. And we’re working on it.
Jeroen: One of you mentioned Paris earlier. Seeing the French president actively promoting France as a financial and technology hub has been hugely influential, in my opinion. Both of you have probably experienced that as well.
The French government has really made a concerted effort to promote the country internationally. Are we doing enough of that in the Netherlands? Should our Prime Minister be playing that role as well?
Ingo: I think everyone should contribute where they can.
I don’t want to judge the government for what it is or isn’t doing. What I do think is important is highlighting what we’ve already achieved as a technology sector in Amsterdam.
That’s one of the reasons I joined Amsterdam Economic Board: to make those achievements more visible and talk about them more. If everyone starts doing that, visibility will naturally improve.
At the same time, we need coordinated action. We have to make sure we continue building a sustainable technology ecosystem. Of course we want government to understand why that’s important, but I think we’re already taking the necessary steps.
Jeroen: So ultimately, it’s all about working together.
Ingo: Yes. And I also think we should look at ourselves as one country. Ultimately, it’s about the Netherlands.
It’s not just about Amsterdam. It’s about attracting the best talent to the country as a whole. It’s about making sure that, if additional data centres need to be built, we actually have the ability to build them.
We also hope the City of Amsterdam recognises how important data centres are. If you want to attract world-class companies and talent, you need the infrastructure and compute capacity to support them.
Jeroen: But I assume the city does recognise that. After all, the Mayor of Amsterdam sits on your Board, doesn’t she?
Jessica: Yes.
Jeroen: So it’s really more about taking action.
Jessica: Yes. And when it comes to data centres, decisions are currently made one project at a time.
What we really need is a long-term strategy. How do we think about compute capacity? What does our technology and AI strategy require? How much compute power do we need, and how do we ensure access to it?
We need to develop long-term strategies and better align national policy with regional policy, and spatial planning with economic planning. Those things are still far too disconnected.
So it’s not only about collaboration between government, businesses, and knowledge institutions. It’s also about better collaboration within government itself. That would make a huge difference. And it all starts with having a shared ambition and making visible what we already have.
Jeroen: We’ve talked a lot about different stakeholders. One group I haven’t heard mentioned yet is the regulators.
Are they also part of this? Because in financial technology, at least, you have a lot of regulation coming from De Nederlandsche Bank (DNB), the Authority for the Financial Markets (AFM), and others. Should regulators also be part of making the Netherlands an attractive place for technology and fintech?
Ingo: Absolutely. And that’s also one of the discussions we’re having with government.
One of the real issues we see in the Netherlands is gold-plating. European financial regulations are often implemented more strictly here than required, even though European regulation is already quite demanding.
It’s different in the United States, for example. But that’s fine—we’re based in Europe, and we accept that we need to comply with European regulations.
The problem arises when the Netherlands adds additional requirements on top of European rules. Because we operate globally, those stricter Dutch standards affect our competitiveness, particularly in markets like the United States.
That’s something we’re actively discussing with the Ministry of Finance, because we simply don’t think it’s helping. Honestly, I struggle to understand why we would do it.
Jeroen: It’s interesting because, whenever I speak to regulators, two themes always come up.
The first is speed—how quickly they deal with requests and new regulatory developments. The second is gold-plating.
Regulators usually tell me they’ve become much faster and that they don’t gold-plate. But whenever I speak to the industry, they say the exact opposite. So it’s an interesting debate.
Ingo: We can point to very specific examples where gold-plating does occur. That’s the issue.
I should add that there is definitely a willingness to listen and explore changes. But we also have many political parties in the Netherlands, and sometimes the pace of decision-making simply isn’t very fast.
Jeroen: That sounds familiar.
All right, I’d like to move to another topic: digital autonomy.
A lot of people use that term, but what exactly does it mean? Let’s start with a clear definition. What does digital autonomy mean to you?
Ingo: For me, digital autonomy is about making very deliberate choices about what you want to do yourself and what you want to outsource. And for everything you outsource, you should ask yourself: is this a long-term lock-in, or can I move away from it if necessary?
That’s what digital autonomy means to me, and also to Adyen. At the core of our platform, we’ve built everything in-house, hosted in our own co-location facilities, across multiple sites and with multiple vendors. That means we don’t have a single point of dependency, which we consider very important.
For other things, such as accounting, we use Workday. That’s completely fine, but it’s a conscious decision. If needed, we can move away from it.
Companies need to be aware of the choices they’re making. Handing over the core of your business to a technology company that then gains full control over your systems and data—that’s something I consider very risky. That’s also why we want to share our experience with other companies and explain the trade-offs we’ve made.
Jeroen: You’re suggesting this happens too often—that companies outsource too many core parts of their business.
Ingo: I think it’s a significant risk.
If you look at where the world is heading with AI, it’s becoming increasingly important to own your own data. If you outsource that data to one of the major technology companies and no longer have full control over it, they can use your data to train their models. That ultimately affects your long-term competitive advantage.
That’s exactly what we want to avoid. At the very least, companies should make those decisions consciously and carefully.
Jessica: Yes, it’s really about making conscious decisions regarding your dependence on systems. Ask yourself: can you leave if you want to?
I recently spoke to several technology companies that said there simply aren’t enough European alternatives. If European alternatives do exist, companies should know about them. And where they don’t yet exist, we need to invest in developing them.
It’s not about being anti-Big Tech. Those companies contribute a great deal, but they also create certain risks. We need to invest in our own alternatives as well.
Jeroen: Digital autonomy exists at multiple levels, doesn’t it? At the company level, at the national level in terms of digital sovereignty, and at the European level.
Last week I listened to someone from the European Commission who presented a very optimistic vision of AI in Europe, whereas most people only talk about China and the United States. Listening to this conversation reminded me of that. It really comes down to telling the story and explaining why, for example, you should be careful about outsourcing everything.
So, as we move towards wrapping up, I’d like to ask each of you for a few recommendations. They can be directed at any stakeholder: local government, national government, regulators, technology companies, Amsterdam Economic Board, Adyen—whoever you think is relevant.
What advice would you give to help keep the Netherlands an attractive place to do business?
Jessica: I think it starts with having an ambition, but also with being proud.
If you look at the payments industry, where Adyen has made such an enormous contribution, it’s remarkable that such a small country has produced global leaders like Adyen. We should be genuinely proud of that. The Netherlands is really a payments powerhouse.
We need to tell that story. We should be proud of our technology sector, but we shouldn’t become complacent. We also have to think about the future. We need to build on what’s already working and make sure the flywheel starts turning again.
The success we enjoy today should also become the success of tomorrow. But that requires investment and collaboration.
Ingo: For me, the key point is curiosity.
We should remain genuinely curious about other stakeholders. What are they trying to achieve? How can we help them?
There are many assumptions about other groups, and they’re often inaccurate. I also think the technology sector doesn’t always have the most positive reputation. But if you look at the facts and at the way companies contribute to the ecosystem, I don’t think it’s fair to portray us as organisations that aren’t transparent or don’t contribute to society.
That’s something we need to change. Part of that is telling our story better, but it’s equally important that both sides remain open to understanding each other—what we’re trying to achieve, how we contribute, and how we can give something back to society and to our local communities.
Jeroen: Being open-minded—that’s something Amsterdam has always been proud of throughout its history.
Ingo: Exactly.
Jessica: Yes. And people need to meet each other. That’s exactly why I work for Amsterdam Economic Board: to bring together parties that wouldn’t normally sit in the same room and simply let them talk.
Eventually, that leads to people working towards the same goals.
Jeroen: Ultimately, that’s probably the solution to many challenges, isn’t it? Everyone operates within their own silo—whether it’s government, Adyen, or anyone else.
You need to get out there, meet people, and, to use your words, remain curious about what others are doing.
So that’s probably your biggest objective—or at least your main way of achieving change.
Jessica: Yes. That’s exactly why we’re working together.
Jeroen: Well, you certainly seem to have gained a very enthusiastic member of Amsterdam Economic Board.
Before we wrap up, is there anything we’ve missed? Is there something that deserved more attention during this conversation?
Ingo: No, I think we’ve covered the essentials.
Amsterdam is a wonderful place to live and a great place to work. As technology companies, universities, and governments, we need to make sure it stays that way by continuing to work together.
I’d also like to invite more technology companies to join us. Join forces, help present Amsterdam in the right way, and show the world just how much talent we have here and how successful our ecosystem really is.
Jessica: Yes. Let’s be proud of what we already have, while continuing to invest in the future—and let’s do it together.
Jeroen: That’s a brilliant closing remark.
Thank you very much, Ingo Uytdehaage, co-CEO at Adyen, and Jessica Peters-Hondelink, Directeur-bestuurder and CEO of Amsterdam Economic Board.
As a small token of appreciation, my colleague and I have brought you a copy of one of the Leaders in Finance books. Thank you for taking the time to speak with us today.
And to our listeners, thank you for listening to Leaders in Finance. I hope you’ll join us again for the next episode.
Thank you.
Jessica: Thank you very much.
Ingo: Thank you.
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